In today's episode, we get to spend time with Elizabeth Sexton and Dr. Ralph Hancock coming to us today from Brigham Young University campus in Utah. Elizabeth, homeschool mother of 3, was eager to pursue her education in political philosophy after her children had graduated. She enrolled in a class with Dr. Hancock, author and professor of political science at BYU. Together, Dr. Hancock and Elizabeth created Fathom the Good, an online resource aimed at resisting radical ideas with timeless truths. Elizabeth wanted to provide families, specifically homeschool families, with an intellectual defence of faith and moral tradition with underpinnings from the American founding.
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Fathom the Good
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In today's episode, we get to spend time with Elizabeth Sexton and Dr. Ralph Hancock coming to us today from Brigham Young University campus in Utah. Elizabeth, homeschool mother of 3, was eager to pursue her education in political philosophy after her children had graduated. She enrolled in a class with Dr. Hancock, author and professor of political science at BYU. Together, Dr. Hancock and Elizabeth created Fathom the Good, an online resource aimed at resisting radical ideas with timeless truths. Elizabeth wanted to provide families, specifically homeschool families, with an intellectual defence of faith and moral tradition with underpinnings from the American founding.
Connect with Elizabeth
Fathom the Good
This Golden Hour
Free eBook Course
thisgoldenhour.org
It was that your scholarship provided an intellectual defense of faith and moral traditions. And I needed that. My children needed that. We have witnessed and continue to witness the sort of Aggressiveness of radical ideological views, and there's not A lot of us that know how to stand up to that with confidence.
Timmy Eaton:Hi. I'm Tim Eaton, homeschool father of 6 and doctor of education. We've been homeschooling for more than 15 years and have watched our children go from birth to university successfully and completely without the school system. Homeschooling has grown tremendously in recent years, and tons of parents are becoming interested in trying it out. But people have questions and concerns and misconceptions and lack the confidence to get Started. New and seasoned homeschoolers are looking for more knowledge and peace and assurance to continue homeschooling. The guests and discussions on this podcast will empower Anyone thinking of homeschooling to bring their kids home and start homeschooling, and homeschoolers at all stages of the journey will get what they need and want from these conversations. Thank you for joining us today, and enjoy this episode of this golden hour podcast as you exercise, drive, clean, or just chill. Welcome back to this Golden Hour podcast. In today's episode, we get to spend time with Elizabeth Sexton and doctor Ralph Hancock coming to us today from Brigham Young University campus in Utah. Elizabeth, homeschool mother of 3, was eager to pursue her education in political philosophy after her children had graduated. She enrolled in a class with doctor Hancock, author and professor of political science at BYU. Together, doctor Hancock and Elizabeth created Fathom the Good, an online resource aimed at resisting radical ideas with timeless truths. Elizabeth wanted to provide families, specifically homeschool families, with an intellectual defense of faith and moral tradition with underpinnings from the American founding. Welcome back to this Golden Hour podcast. Today, we have a unique interview. We have with us Elizabeth Sexton and Ralph Hancock. And Elizabeth is a previous homeschooling mother of 3 and a student of political philosophy with Ralph, and we're gonna tell that story here in a little bit. And Ralph Hancock is a professor of and let me make sure I say this right, but of political science at BYU and the author of many books and articles. And then and you also is it Did you get your PhD at Harvard? That's correct. Yeah. Okay. Excellent. So so maybe could you guys both and I'll just let you guys decide who will answer what, but however you want. But how did you come together, and what is Fathom the Good?
Elizabeth Sexton:So I as a typical homeschooler mom, maybe not typical, but In my case, I had not finished my undergraduate degree when I started my family and chose to be an at home mom. Had several businesses from the home, but and at that time, the school system was Questionable. It wasn't nearly the disaster that it is now. Amen. But there were issues, and I was concerned, so I opted to homeschool And was very interested in uh, the Philosophical foundations of the American founding, which I really knew very little about, but I knew how important it was. And so I looked for curricula that would address that and found that There really wasn't much out there. I they were either above my head, And I threw him in the closet and never looked at him again, and certainly above my children's heads. Or they were just really simplistic, and It didn't feel like they were very helpful. So fast forward, my kids grew up, and I wanted to finish my degree. So I went back to school and was actually quite disappointed in the pickings. I was interested in political philosophy, and the offerings were just really limited until I a course entitled uh, Tocqueville something something. Singh. And I saw Tocqueville, and I thought, oh, now that would interest me. I enrolled in Ralph's class and was hooked. I ended up taking, I think 7 of his courses which is really way too much for That's all there is. Because many as I could. There was a lot of courses, but, Really appreciated the scholarship that Ralph had put together. I'm not a scholar. I'm A mom who's very interested in civic issues and the American founding and our western tradition. And I just felt that he had put something together that was very meaningful and began to see as Time progressed and more radical philosophies started to go mainstream, which was right about this time, 2 2015. I began to see how valuable this could be If everyday people like myself could access. Yes. And I thought, oh, this is exactly what I was looking for As a homeschool mom, except it's too, scholarly. It's too difficult. And As I just started thinking of how could I make this more meaningful to a 15 year old or get a mom to use this information When she really doesn't, have that educational foundation. And Mhmm. That's where the idea came from. We joined forces in 2017. I figured, to write a couple of homeschool School curricula would take a year or 2, and the joke was on me. Oh, wow. Figuring out the pedagogy behind this Took 3 years. 3 years just to get that and then to take his scholarship use a language that was more easier to follow and That it's been a huge, massive, intense project, but that's where it started. That's how we met, and
Timmy Eaton:That's Yeah. Why we're here. And I wanted to ask a few questions on that, but go ahead, Ralph, first.
Ralph Hancock:Oh, first, I would just say that, Other professors who've taught a few years as I have would recognize that. It's 1 of the Relatively rare um, satisfactions of teaching is when uh, you get grown ups in your class. People who've Who are older than 22 or 24 and have some life experience in the working world as parents With the realities of the world and come back into your class. Because then that's another dimension. Yeah. Because And they may not hit the ground running as fast as, you know, a really sharp 20 year old who's in the flow of this way of life already. But they come with an understanding of why things matter. Mhmm. And if you're talking about important things, they resonate at a deeper level. And I have found that satisfying over the years, and Elizabeth was an excellent case of this. It was, quite inspiring and a little daunting to me that she saw something there. She got her teeth into it, and she wouldn't let go. She needed A little coaching just as how to work through it and cash it out in terms of the products of academic life, papers, and exams and stuff. But she proved a very quick study. And yeah, naturally, it's inspiring and encouraging. Uh, When a grown up and seasoned persons See something in what you're doing that they think is very viable. So I thank Elizabeth for that. And as she says, at some point, she said, Why don't we make this available to a more general audience? And I said, yeah. That seems simple enough. I'll just give you my ideas and go ahead and make them available.
Timmy Eaton:No problem. Yeah. 8 800
Elizabeth Sexton:pages. And, I mean, I remember sitting in my office and Oh. It's an 800, but it was hundreds. And Yes. And I remember just thinking, oh, What have I gotten myself into?
Ralph Hancock:Yeah. Wow. This is this question is a little self serving, but, actually, I think It would it might be good for me and the audience. Yes. I ask Elizabeth a question now because I would Maybe I'm putting her on the spot, but it would be good for me to know just what this thing was. It Might be hard to name or to articulate briefly, but what it was that she thought was valuable that was so worthy of being translated for more General audience. Is
Timmy Eaton:That's a great question.
Elizabeth Sexton:Yeah. Super easy. Great question. I'm very clear on it. It was that your scholarship provided an intellectual defense of faith and moral traditions. And I needed that. My children needed that. We have witnessed and continue to witness the sort of Aggressiveness of radical ideological views, and there's not A lot of us that know how to stand up to that with confidence. And I think we don't know how to. We're intimidated by it naturally because we really don't and the philosophical underpinnings of the American founding. And yet, they are they do so much good in terms of defending faith and morality. And I think that the vast majority of homeschoolers are quite interested in knowing how to do
Timmy Eaton:that. I was gonna say in the typical school system, the reason why that might be is that hasn't been taught or even valued by many. And so because that's been lost over time, you don't have those underpinnings for for children in US or Canada or other places. And there's a definite agenda, I think, that's being pushed. And that maybe, you stronger in some places than others, but without a doubt, somebody is influencing. I had to talk the other day with somebody about curriculum, and I just said, wait a minute. Somebody is behind all the curriculum that gets adopted and used in the schools, and everyone has their bias and their worldview. And so and I would too. I admit it. I would have a very clear idea that I want, and that's why I like choice. And that's why I like the freedom to choose. So there was a lot there. I really appreciate that. So if I could ask a couple of questions. So 1 thing I was wondering about Elizabeth is you said that Things were happening when you were raising your kids. It led you to homeschool. Can you get specific? What are a couple of examples? And then You kinda said that's escalated in the day we live in now clearly, but what was it then if you could identify some particulars that you were like, no. I'm gonna choose the homeschool route.
Elizabeth Sexton:I think I could see the way our culture was inclining itself to a pretty high level of Sexualization. I could see things like comprehensive I think it's what is it? CSC, comprehensive Sexuality education. Mhmm. I think that's what it's called. You're not familiar with that. That term. No. Okay. It's it's It's right.
Timmy Eaton:I know I can feel what you're saying.
Elizabeth Sexton:And, it's not a viable alternative to traditional sex ed. That's how it's marketed, but it's really teaching inappropriate ideas To even very young children. So I could see that in the works. It wasn't flagrant at that point, but I could see it coming. I think issues around equality um, were, I grew up in the sixties and seventies, and, the sexual liberation was a big deal. Right? And I could just see how that was Going to a new level. Projecting it onto younger and younger
Timmy Eaton:people. Yeah. And like we said, there's definitely a worldview that was pushing that's pushing that. Somebody will be pushing that.
Elizabeth Sexton:And Yeah. And what used to be taboo, I could see was starting to the it was being normalized. And sure enough, here we are today, and we really see how that's happened. But Yeah. I would say those are 2 examples.
Timmy Eaton:Yeah. No. I appreciate that. Any comment on that, Ralph? Any anything to add to I know you can't comment on why she homeschooled. But
Ralph Hancock:No. But look, I think to just go back to the kind of fundamental motivation. What inspired her and something that I was trying to Articulate in my teaching. She used the word intimidation or not being intimidated by the Prestige in the sense of a kind of elite consensus that is somewhat fluid and mysterious, but that stands behind a lot of the leading, which I call them progressive, Left liberal and now woke tendencies that now completely dominate the American Academy, Higher Education, and so much else besides. But The whole premise of that, let's just call it secular rationalist viewpoint is that traditional faith And morality don't have a respectable intellectual standing. And the really smart people Think like us. Maybe relativistic, sexual revolution, egalitarian, often socialist, now woke. So there's A presumption that to be smart is to follow this secular rationalist avant garde. And so I think job 1 is just to face down this intimidation and to say, no. Actually not. That is not careful thinking. That is not rigorous thinking. That is not deep thinking. But then on the other hand, many Religious people and morally traditionalist people make the same mistake from the other side by saying, Totally. Reason and the intellectuals Or maybe they're morally relativist or in some ways, or they are radically egalitarian or in favor of this Impossible equity or what have you. Therefore, we distrust the life of reason and rigorous thinking. We just believe in these fundamentals That we believe in. Yeah. Now to me, I think that's a disastrous mistake too because We are thinking beads. Mhmm. We do we walk by the best light that we have, By our best understanding. And we cannot afford to offload the responsibility For careful thinking to someone else. We need to gain we need to gain confidence. We need to know how to give a reason for our faith. We need to be able to show how reason actually opens up to faith and how reason supports um, traditional morality. Yeah. So that's the basic premise. Don't accept the intimidation of the, I would say corrupt intellectual elites who assume without really most of the time, without really arguing or defending this viewpoint, Who assumed that to be really smart or to think critically is to criticize other people's moral and religious foundations. Yeah. That's actually a shallow and dogmatic point of view that rests upon its own assumptions. And I think 1 distinctive part of Fathom is that we actually explore the foundation to that rationalism and show its clay feet. We don't need to be intimidated by this.
Timmy Eaton:And the thought that I have had as you guys have been talking is this idea of I feel like it's almost like I would call it my myself of a false conflict between, like you said, faith and reason. I just don't think it's a true conflict. I think that they're encompassed within 1 another, and that 1 does not have to choose 1 and then totally hold to that. And so and to me that totally goes against, so called open mindedness and trying to really learn from any from 1 another and to live inequality. It's just interesting to me that people wanna put the conflict when it doesn't have to exist. And so I think, if who was it? Was it Descartes that said the only thing that we can kinda say with clarity is anything that is clear and distinct. And so until you reach that point, why not just be humble? Why not just be humble and allow for real thought and to real to really think through things? So so Fathom the Good was born completely out of that, taking so much of the philosophy that professor Hancock was talking about in his classes, and then you were trying to put make that accessible can I just ask real quick? Is the majority of your the people that sign on to Fathom the Good. Is it majority homeschool families, or is it all over the place?
Elizabeth Sexton:No. It is majority homeschool, and we have some adults who are also I have an adult course available, and so that's starting to appeal to people. Yeah. But it is It's designed for homeschoolers and that is our audience.
Ralph Hancock:In the longer term, we'd be happy to To crack the private school market and so forth. But, yeah, we're starting with with the homeschool market, especially. I had
Timmy Eaton:an interview last week with a man from Missouri who is he works in a uh, it's called the Herzog Foundation. And objective of the Herzog Foundation is to perpetuate and to really push Christian education. And I just thought, there's lots of Christian schools that would be interested in these types of foundational underpinnings of either the, you know, the founding fathers. Have you guys both heard of TJ Ed, like Thomas Jefferson education? Yeah. No. I
Ralph Hancock:don't know about it really.
Timmy Eaton:Everyone does their own thing. My wife and I found ourselves really uh, lining with Charlotte Mason, who I think is just unbelievable myself. And some of the things she was saying, I hear confirmed over and over again, and it's just send it truths based on principles of learning and teaching. But um, t TJ Ed is 1 that a lot of people it's called they call it TJ Ed. And it does a similar thing as this. And so it'd be interesting to look at the, some differences and some similarities between the 2 curricula. But anyway, it's just a thought, CJ. A lot of people do that. Can I
Ralph Hancock:venture a suggestion? Yes, please. I'm eager to see maybe I have looked at, but I don't All the Thomas Jefferson education. And but to speak more generally about the curricula that Focus on the American founding because, you know, we're part of that larger family. And that's because we think there's a lot of wisdom in the founding and A wisdom that has to be very relevant to those of us who who love America Yeah. And want to Save what's best in it and fend off those that undermine it and who are enemies to it. At the same time, I if I If I wanted to state as briefly as possible what's distinctive about us, it's the way that we situate the American founding. That's good principles, and you can start with those principles and do much good. But we're looking at those principles and then in a way excavating beneath them to the the western tradition, both Christian and classical. Let's say, Christian faith on the 1 hand and the premodern philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle on the other hand. We're excavating beneath the founders and beneath the enlightenment To see what's really at stake in a way that allows us to appreciate the really unprecedented Synthesis that the American founders were able to form Mhmm. Between the way they were able to take some New ideas uh, enlightenment ideas of but in a generic, classical liberal sense are Progressive ideas, ideas that promote human freedom and economic growth. Yeah. But how those were joined with the best of a tradition that affirms the Eternal moral truths. Yes. And the necessity of what Plato called the order of the soul to found good government. Self government in the Republic under the constitution depends upon self government understood as the right order of the soul. So they're in a kind of capsule as how We are all about the American founding, but seen as a kind of synthesis of what is best in the Christian and classical traditions.
Elizabeth Sexton:I think that's where parents will recognize and fathom how it's a missing piece, how it so fills this you know, in the defense of faith and morality, it just provides a very nuanced understanding that when you study it, when you look at it, it's Extraordinarily satisfying, but that's where the confidence and energy comes from because you see something that We're missing. Mhmm. We're missing. And it's not easily captured.
Timmy Eaton:And maybe what would bring this to light even more clearly for my audience and its people, because I love that you I mean, it's called Fathom the Good, which I think is a great name. And you can, 1 can think of, like, why that title. But you have on your website lots of stuff about answering the question of the good. Can you guys speak to that a little bit? Because when people say good, they just think generically oh, yeah. It's good. But we're talking about something like you said excavating beneath. How would you respond to like, what's behind the idea of answering the question of the good? then also and I know that's a lot to put on this question, but if somebody, just simply disagrees with, I don't see that as the good, We just agreed to disagree. Is that right? Or yeah. Anyway,
Ralph Hancock:so Okay. Yeah. That's a lot. That's a very pertinent question, But it's a lot and uh, Elizabeth has handed it off to me. So I'll take a stab at it and invite her to help clarify, elaborate. But well, look, this really goes back to what I was saying about the American founding. And to understand the good of the American founding, The soundness of its principles. You have to understand what's at stake more generally, if I may put it that way. And the problem is that today, the, the principles of the founding, anything you can Shake a stick at liberty and equality. These are often you know, if there are 2 words that capture the essence of the American founding, Liberty and equality might be these 2 words, but these words are subject to interpretation and misinterpretation. In a way, we're asking What does liberalism or the philosophy of liberty mean? Mhmm. And, really, There are 2 different ways you can go in Following through on the question of the meaning of liberty or freedom, and equality is bound up with these at the same time too. But Today, a great temptation is to inter interpret freedom as freedom from any Higher authority or permanent moral authority. Mhmm. And many progressives and secular rationalists believe That's what's redeemable in the founding. They talked about freedom, and we understand maybe better than they did that freedom finally means, Secular humanism.
Timmy Eaton:Yeah. And if I could bump in there for a second and then and please don't lose your train of thought, but it's almost like the I hear the analogy all the time of the string and the kite. And, these moral laws, if for those who believe in a higher being and somebody who is, behind all that, It actually is what gives you the bounds to be able to create the maximum amount of freedom. Whereas somebody who doesn't see that, they just go, I don't buy that. I want complete, like you said, whatever it is, relativism or humanism or
Ralph Hancock:Freedom liberated from the true and the good Cannot sustain itself. It's not free. It is not free. But and, liberation, which became a buzzword In the sixties and seventies, and it's still a vital, I think, motive behind woke freedom today. Freedom as liberation from any higher power collapsed upon itself and cannot be sustained. And relating to this to the idea of fathom the good. The root of this tendency to interpret freedom In terms of a total emancipation from moral and religious authority, That was not invented No. By the woke generation or by The sixties radicals, although they made good use of it. That goes Deep. All the way back. And the American founders were already confronting the radical enlightenment that talk that way. So but When when I talk of excavating beneath the founding, 1 direction of our excavation is back to the Foundations of the modern purely secular idea of freedom in the early modern period. So we'll have Lessons on Rene Descartes, when you whom you mentioned, by the way, and on Machiavelli and Thomas Hobbes. Mhmm. So the whole point of that emancipation, of that liberationism, freedom as liberation from the higher good is the denial Of the good. This was deliberate. This is baked into the cake of modern rationalism from 200 years At least before the American founding. It's not new. It's not new. And to fathom the good Is to give to is to take an interest in the good, to ask the question. And this gets a little tricky, but you ask about people who disagree. But in a way, as soon as you ask the question, you've already moved the conversation onto station onto a more solid ground. Mhmm. And you're already capable of seeing that emancipation or freedom in the sense of emancipation or lib or liberation Makes no sense if it's not if the question of a higher purpose has been excluded. Yeah. Yes. There I could there are more particular there are some substantive things you can say about the you can say that it must be something that, That practically speaking gives order to the soul and gives us a ground upon which to govern our passions and to develop Virtue or good character. Those things are good. Mhmm. And the person yeah. At some point, the person who denies that good character is a good thing You just disagree. I'm not sure we need to do business with such a person. This is not our
Timmy Eaton:market. Yeah. I mean, we're all products of where we come from, but at some point, we all started asking our own questions. I mean, Okay. What do I actually believe? Okay. I was raised this way or that way, but I'm interested in and then we can shift whatever. But I was just listening to a podcast the other day with Ron DeSantis, and it said how he went to Yale University. And he actually found himself in becoming more conservative in a very liberal and I feel like you had a similar experience Ralph, going to Harvard and then actually becoming more conservative. And again and I hate to make it like I know that you are definitely you're teaching political philosophy. But for me and my audience, that's not really the that's not really The interest is much it's more just what is actually, like, when we start really asking the questions, thinking for ourselves and coming from our own paradigm and our own worldview. What is it that leads to good? And the other way just seems like a recipe for chaos. Emancipation and liberation to me is anarchy or chaos or anyone can do anything. Like, Our
Ralph Hancock:point is not To raise professional or academic political philosophers or people who publish in scholarly journals in this area or to make over parents As political philosophers, but some it's a sign of our times and the dire crisis of our times that actually without some elements of political philosophy. Yes. We are at risk of being intimidated and Swept away by the winds of ideology. And I I would say that, A philosophy that fathoms the good or a our philosophy in a good sense as opposed to this Dogmatic secular rationalism. Mhmm. A philosophy open to the good is a philosophy that liberates common sense because there is a moral commerce. There's a lot we don't know. Yeah. And we need, we need divine revelation to fill in the gaps and to pin down some things. Mhmm. But look, as human beings, the knowledge is naturally available to us that A good character is better than a tyrannical, a slavish, or a licentious character. Yes. We don't we don't need philosophy to tell us that some things are beneath the level of human decency. We need good philosophy to fend off the bad philosophy that would undermine our confidence in what we know.
Elizabeth Sexton:And I think that even a simpler way to look at it is that The question of the good is what leads families and communities to a state of flourishing. Whereas a failure, a repression of the question of the good, which is what the modern world, modern education has done, it's press that question leads to, like you said, chaos. It's an important question. We can't change our trajectory And get on very well if we continue to fail to understand what that question Means and to ask it all the
Ralph Hancock:time. As Elizabeth has just suggested, the question of the good first of all, to frame it as a question, it sounds very Socratic following Socrates, and it is. But again, it's it doesn't it's not suggesting some sort of ethereal unending speculation. To be interested in the good is to recognize that there is a moral authority. And you see how in a way, the question is already a good start on the answer.
Timmy Eaton:And if you don't start with that premise, then you have no grounds to say that 1 is right and 1 isn't. That's right. And so then where do you go from there anyway? And so the question that I always ask, and I think a lot of homeschool parents do this too. They'll say, okay. There's this idea of tolerance and tolerate and, I think the way that I would ask it is, where do we draw the line? Because with due respect and to people's people and where they come from and their backgrounds. I totally get we all come from different things. And, again, I don't wanna get too specific, but when we have schools of people that are animals like, these kids that are animals in schools. They call them furries. I don't know if that's universal or what. Oh, yeah. But it's like, where do you draw the line? Because that stuff is whereas somebody who is struggling with a very real mortal condition and something that's difficult requires a lot of compassion and love and understanding. But then when you go so crazy on stuff, then it's like There's no bounds at all, and it is chaotic. So there's a lot of categories if you and and I hate to categorize homeschoolers, but, a lot of homeschool families do it proactively, and they'll say, I just wanna spend time with my kids. And that's what me and that's what my wife and I were about. Some respond to what's going on in their community or their school or their world, and they go, oh, no. Now I gotta choose a different option because For for me and my wife and I, we were just going we wanna spend time with our kids, and this is that's the name of this podcast, this golden hour, because You only have them for a certain amount of time and to each his or her own, but we wanted to spend quality time through these years, and we've just seen it be so beneficial. And I have strong feelings about that, and I have my own bias about that. But then the other is the reaction to what's going on, and you go, okay. I draw the line there. I'm not doing that. My kid's not going to that, and There's a curriculum there that is totally the antithesis of what is freedom and liberation, and yet that's the grounds that people are saying. And this is a really weird question, but I want you to, if you could answer this and this is really naive of me, but is a woke is woke a good word to anybody. I'm and I'm seriously about that. Is that always a bad word?
Ralph Hancock:Oh, no. We're using the word because it was a good word. I'm
Timmy Eaton:saying woke. I'm saying it we yeah. So tell me about that because when I every time I hear it and People call
Ralph Hancock:themselves woke. That's why we talk that way. Yeah. Like I first found out about this. Maybe it would be close to the time when you were my student, Elizabeth. I don't recall, but I but a student or 2 in my seminar classes, which Would it refer to a woke uh, ideology or sensibility? Some
Timmy Eaton:people this is again, this is totally naive of me, but some people are saying no. I am woke. Sure. Because to me, I'm going, you're admitting that?
Ralph Hancock:Like, I just like,
Elizabeth Sexton:uh You know, It's an the idea of being awakened is Has Yeah. Yeah. And I just connotations. And so if you're a convert to the secular Woke movement. Wokeism, then being woke is, a
Ralph Hancock:compliment. Yep. No. And apparently, it came I've read that it came from some African American dialect. But in any case, it was soon adopted espoused very positively by those who thought themselves more enlightened, the progressive of the progressive. I I started hearing about this in my classroom uh, before it made the news. And so my students taught me the word as a word that was embraced by those who thought They were the most enlightened, certainly. Yeah.
Timmy Eaton:Again, that was definitely naive, but and it probably reveals just, where my mind is, but I just it is It is like an interesting thing because I again, where do you draw the line and where do you have any form of safety and order? And anyway so 1 thing that you guys have talked about in at least on the the site, it talks about a lot of what does it say? Seay. I love the way that's put here. It says restoring moral goodness, higher human purposes, divine purposes. And you've been talking about that. But where does that play into the question of the good? I mean, Ralph has said like, unless you believe it in the book of question of the good. That is the
Elizabeth Sexton:question. It is. And, Socrates was the first 1 to ask it, but, of course, he wasn't a Christian, and yet he understood that um, he had moral limits. He wanted to help people become better people. So he devoted his philosophical career To asking questions that would enable people to self reflect and change. But It's not like he believed in the Christian God yet he was restrained by those moral limits, And it directed his thinking. Our use of the word is the same. It Yes. Is relevant to a ancient pagan philosopher uh, as well as to A Christian mom.
Ralph Hancock:Yep. Anybody who's open to some things being better than others, Some way a way of life being better than another. A form of character or a form of community being Better than another. As soon as you recognize a capacity to make rational and reasonable distinction such as that, You are on the trail of the question of the good. You are fathoming the good. Let me
Timmy Eaton:can I ask it this way and see? If somebody said to you, they said, so if without a higher moral authority, what is good? 30. What is
Ralph Hancock:good? Okay. Without A personal god as a higher moral authority. Is that what you mean? The good is authoritative. It has
Timmy Eaton:authority. Yeah. And that's what I think that's what I'm saying is like
Ralph Hancock:It's not a matter of taste. Okay? It's not a preference. It's not a whim. It's not just the object of desire. It's something that has a Compelling quality. Is the word authoritative too heavy? I don't think. When we pursue the good, we're aware That we do not construct reality. That we are beholden to an order of reality and morality. An order of reality that includes morality that precedes us, that we are
Timmy Eaton:beholden to us. And maybe what's threatening is the potential of it not being a benevolent authority. If it's not a benevolent authority, that's what scares people. And, again, that's where anyway, that anyway, sorry. Go ahead, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth Sexton:You asked a question, Where does it stop? Where do we start talking to say too much is too much? And so let's use the example of transgender ideology. Most of us know that Xx cannot become x y or vice versa. It's a biological reality. That used to limit us. But because of secular humanism, because of this secular belief And our ability to create ourselves we have, cast away those limits. And So that now the idea of of gender identity is what dictates Biology. You create your own biology around your identity. Most of us look at that and say, okay. That's nuts. That Is a that doesn't work. And we recognize that it's not truth. Yet, how many of us can defend that position in the face of the hijacking of the language of love and compassion. Yes. It's very difficult. Ralph does it really well. Yeah. But I still have to take a few breaths Before I can respond. Yeah. But when you start to think about where ideas originated, Where does the idea, okay, that biology is factual in nature, how does that connect To our natural law tradition when you have some understanding of where these ideas originate And what is the basis of true compassion and true love? When you think these things through And you've developed the critical thinking skills. We haven't talked about that, but that's a massive part Of what makes Fathom the Good effective is that we teach critical skills that are essential To fulfilling our purpose as reasoning beings. Mhmm. You can't reason. Reason is deliberation and action. That's the process. Mhmm. So you can't be a moral agent if you don't have the tools to exercise Either your capacity for deliberation or
Timmy Eaton:action. And, again, yeah, it doesn't allow freedom. It doesn't allow
Elizabeth Sexton:You're stuck, and our kids are Stuck. Most many adults are stuck. We haven't been taught. And
Timmy Eaton:They used to read for fun, and and we like, I've talked to my classes a lot where they'll say, it's hard to be engaged in a class because I've got a I've got in my pocket tons of entertainment. And so I'm gonna read for fun when I can watch this funny thing over and over again. And, I mean, it's just said it's no competition for the day. And so that's hard. Whereas they used to read at the hearth, and that was like fun, man. They That was where that kind of education and reading was
Elizabeth Sexton:Yeah. And, I let me put in my rant too about social media. I mean, it It's so oriented around emotionalism a Sense of activism, a sense of purpose through activism, and it directs young people especially to a line of thinking That has nothing to do with problem solving. For example, look at the transgender issue. I personally think that there's Could be a lot of good in this question of gender identity. Because I think as Western cultures, we've tended to limit, a very feminine looking man was labeled gay. A very masculine woman who you likes to use tools and, was Considered a lesbian. Okay. Those are wrong. That's wrong. The range of The kinds of people that we can be while still retaining our male or female identity is huge. So I think there's so much good to having conversations around that. Mhmm. But that's not what Kids are talking about or
Timmy Eaton:adults. And they're not learning and they're not learning how to navigate those concepts in in a way that really gets them to where what do you really think? Sink. You like you said think. You need tools to be able to access
Elizabeth Sexton:that. Where have we been mistaken in our understanding, And how do we need to address it to more fully achieve the American ideal of liberty and justice for all?
Timmy Eaton:Yeah. Do you indoctrinate, or do you actually equip and empower people to like you said power. I like what you said. On your site, it says because you offer a classical high school curriculum to prepare post secondary studies. And then some of the things that you really focus on is reading, writing, debate, complex and primary texts, which I loved, critical thinking skills, reasoning tools, being able to familiarize, summarize, engage, articulate. A lot of these homeschool families that's what they want. They want this rich, robust education for their kids. And not that it's all focused on on academics, but that just to be a contributing human and a contributing citizen and a well rounded individual, These skills are they're totally essential and foundational to any future. And especially in the in our I just think of the way that the economy is and will be when my kids are trying to buy a house and stuff. They need to be able to get into careers where they have those skills Mhmm. Because they'll be obsolete if they don't know how to learn, and they need
Ralph Hancock:to know how to learn. Yeah. Tim, I'm at that's a great triggering question for Elizabeth. She's the developer and the expert on all the the reason the stuff, the reason tools, the toolbox that we have. And really, it's been inspiring to me to see the thought she's put into conceiving and developing these tools. But if I can back up to 1 more conceptual Yes. Go ahead. Has been hovering in the background that we I think we can nail down a little better still Because you very naturally keep coming back to the question of Who decides what the good is? Or what is the authority behind the good? And, I think it's important of course, obviously, the point of this curriculum is not to Cross all the t's and dot all the i's in a theory of the good that would then be a template for your family and maybe could be Imposed upon the political or as well. No. Of course, that's not what we're doing. We are teaching Critical thinking that is a different kind of critical that is really critical and departs from what often passes itself self offer critical thinking in a fundamental way. Because most of what passes it up passes itself off as critical thinking Is unthinkingly critical of traditional faith and morality without thinking critically about what's going to replace them, We're not thinking about the question of the good. So the basis of critical thinking is to understand that the question of the good Cannot be dismissed. It's always going to be there for us personally as well as for us as political Communities. So and what I mean by that is that the point is not that we have some Clear formula that will tell us where to draw the line in every case where traditional moral authority should give way to freedom, tolerance, and diversity and so forth. No. We don't propose That there's 1 single place to draw the line. What we're saying is that in a real political in a real free republic, a political community, We are talking about our common purposes. We are talking about the good. We are talking about the common good. And you can't say, No. We don't get to talk about that because we're talking about diversity and liberation. Mhmm. No. That's a That's cheating. Yeah. Because you still must have some purpose. You must be able to give an account of How your way of conceiving our society and its degree of diversity and unity or whatever its interpretation of Equality and inequality. You still have to provide an interpretation of our The of the principles of our society that plausibly leads to flourish to human flourishing Mhmm. To a good life For people in our country. And so as soon as you're asking that question, you see you are rising above The ideological level upon which the the debate about diversity, equity, and inclusion, for example, takes place. Let's think about how do we wanna raise our children? What do we want them to be done? How do we conceive of a society that is actually Orderly as well as free, and he puts people to govern themselves and to live decent lives. Yeah. As soon as you ask the question, you've moved it To a
Elizabeth Sexton:different plane. But we've been very complacent in having that conversation. As people of faith, we've been focusing on how to live a moral life According to our faith in private. But we really have not, required, demanded, insisted upon having conversations as families, as communities, As a nation of people on yeah. Okay. What are these fundamental Beliefs, these fundamental goods that unite us, that connect us to 1 another. You take that away and what's left? A bunch of tribes that are at each other's throats. So by teaching children, and I want to emphasize too that You can't fathom the good if you only involve your team. Well, You can, And it's beneficial. I don't wanna discourage parents who just want the course for their teams. But as part of the course, we've also integrated a family discussion guide Yes. And a series of podcasts For busy parents that sort of summarize every lesson and provide additional More adult like insight so that even if a mom or dad never looks at the course that their child, their 15 year old's taking. Mhmm. They can follow along with these podcasts and this guide so that they can take the whole family at the dinner table. It's broken down into age groups. So I have questions that really fundamentally fundamental Philosophical questions for young children, the middle agers, and the high schoolers Mhmm. That Parents can then start to have conversations like this in the home so that when their 12 year old leaves, They're already used to engaging on this level. What do we care about? What is important? Why? Why do we feel this way? And developing that critical thought Mhmm. That enables us to engage
Timmy Eaton:Public. I was gonna say, like both of you said, the critical thinking that first of all, that term, which is actually a great term, has been used so pervasively that it's like It's been high. It's kinda lost its meaning. If you say critical thinking in a paper, it's now you're doing now you're really talking. But the reality is what is critical thinking? And I don't tell me if this is accurate to the purpose or the objective of Fathom the Good. It's to actually is to actually cultivate those skills like you're saying. And I think a lot of homeschool families do that. They'll They will like, a huge part of homeschooling is read aloud, and that's not universal, but it's pretty widespread. Read aloud with your family of people of all ages. A lot of times they'll do it with a coop or with other people, and they're talking about things of of you're talking about things that are relevant to the day that are urgent. Yeah. And I love what you guys have said on the site. It says it's basically it dispels the myth that you can't handle the rigor of post secondary thinking, reading, and writing while in high school. And I've bought into that. I grew up in a Chicago area, and I remember thinking I can't do a university course. All my kids have that have I have 2 that have graduated and 1 son that's a junior in high school, and they're taking university classes and doing really well because they can really focus on those classes. And we just have to let scales drop from our eyes and be able to really consider no. They are capable of doing this, but we have to empower them and cultivate these skills so that they can grapple with concepts that aren't just about Fortnite. And I'm not ripping on kids doing that, but like, Well, kind of ma'am, but like it's there's really important matters. And then 1 of the things I was thinking of is a lot of the what Fathom the Good in my mind as I see it is doing is it's helping people it's a direct response to, things that are going on in the Searold, and it's a it's an effort to restore goodness, answer the question of good, hire human purposes engage students in the great conversation address the problem of radicalization, confront ideological postmodern confusion. Now those are the things that stood out to me. But In my head, that's a response to what has become or what is now, which is totally important, and we need to do that. But behind that, it still is the principle, no matter what the issue is, whether it's radicalization or ideological, movements or whatever else, The critical thinking that we're teaching will respond to anything that emerges. And that's and to me, that's what homeschoolers want. They want something that is transcendent no matter what is what I mean, what's gonna emerge in the year 2065? Yeah.
Elizabeth Sexton:And that's why we don't, at the end of a section, I don't have a summary that says, so here's how you respond to transgender ideology or CRT or what you know, here's the talking points. We don't do that. Our objective is to provide the critical skills and the and the original source material To trace ideas back to their stores so that you know where they came from and what they what, what does equality really mean? What does justice really mean No. That's excellent. To trace it back to the those ideas back to their source in order To refine our capacity to exercise moral conscience. That's the point. And that is a lifelong skill is transformative. I really want to go back to what you said about buying into the idea that we can't think on this level, that our children can't think on this level. I really wanna appeal to moms Because women are powerful, and we have as Christians, we have a job to do or to raise our families And to influence our children and the world around us to move towards a greater good. And it's a wonderful job, but I think we Don't give ourselves the benefit of the doubt when we think that we can only do that based on our faith. As I've said many times, the vast majority of Us in North America have not received the kind of education that Ralph received, for example, Or that we're offering through Fathom the Good. Most of us know very little about political philosophy. That's where I started. Mhmm. And I've learned over Stein that we can develop the skills and we can develop That foundation of knowledge, we cannot justify complacency, and we cannot turn a blind eye. This knowledge, these skills really matter right now
Timmy Eaton:in the world. Well, If 1 chooses not to engage in that way, then you're it is an actual proactive choice to remain in ignorance or because I like the idea of teaching those principles and then truly saying Now based on those skills that you've acquired, how do you see the landscape, and how do you make sense of this? Kind of what Ralph was saying before of Let's just not abandon common sense. And, of course, we all carry our biases into it, but I love the idea of just saying, Here are the real things. Don't Don't, strip yourself from the conversations of the day. And, I know that's impossible, but I'm saying we're so influenced by when you think about the question what do I know totally independent of any other person? I just don't know. Unless you believe in divine communication. You don't know anything.
Ralph Hancock:Tocqueville made that he showed that we depend upon shared beliefs. Yeah. We can rise above them too, but That's 1 of our lessons. It's in the
Elizabeth Sexton:very beginning. Of course not. And if I may, I want to take just a minute to briefly explain how the curriculum works Please do. Because I want to go back to your point about Taking the knowledge from, an intellectual understanding to a question of relevancy. Yes. So what? How does this apply to my life? Excellent. That's 1 of the more critical steps In the process of developing critical thought is understanding personal relevancy. How does it apply to me? So the course is divided into 4 learning objectives. Mhmm. Familiarize, summarize, engage, and articulate. Familiarizes very quick, very brief. They the child just briefly looks through the text. I don't want them to read it word for word. Just briefly look at it. Make a guess. What do you think it's about? Don't worry about it. You can be way
Ralph Hancock:off. Just for example, you might have 500 words of Tocqueville's democracy in America In front of you. That might be what we're talking about. Or just let's tackle this. Take a look. And what are you Yeah. After Yeah.
Timmy Eaton:Don't don't feel intimidated by it. Just what's your first take?
Elizabeth Sexton:What's your first take? What's your guess? That's it. And no sweat, just guess. And it's really awakening the mind. It's the intellectual warm up. And then we go to the summarize A learning objective, which takes the child through an actual reading. Yes. I have the readings divided by red letters, a, b, c, d. In the section on summarization I include summary questions. So the child has to go through the text. The question refers to where they'll find it, if it's under a, b, c, or d. So it simplifies the process. Yeah. But they have to go through the text. And some of these are a little you know, John reading John Locke, I always Struggle with John Locke. But, it's not social media language. Not in sound byes. I hope not. But they have to go through. And by answering those questions, we've guided through the process of summarizing the argument. And probably 1 of the most challenging parts of the whole course Is in this learning objective, they have to write what we call a precis. It's It's just a very fancy French word for summary. Yeah. So and but because we help them lay it out, And they're required to explain to a parent what they've learned. So they really internalize it, and then they realize they didn't fully Sanda. So they go back and they That's awesome.
Timmy Eaton:That's what Charlotte Mason calls narration.
Elizabeth Sexton:Yeah. And then they do it again until they've got it down, and then they write this Tracy. By that time, they've achieved a level of mastery that's actually profound. That's actually profound To get a 15 year old to do that, and they can do it. They can. They can do it. The next section to engage Throws all of that. Forget all of that. Now we're going to ask, so what? And this process involves journaling. So we have props that are open ended that are meant to help the child see Beyond what John Locke said to how that pertains to their own experience. Mhmm. They're very leading questions. We don't want them to worry about grammar, spelling, any of that. We just want them to write all this down. And then the the culmination of it all is Articulate, and that's the critical essay. So the course is very it's developmental. And if parents just get their children to commit to doing 1 or 2 sections, I tell them, Tell your kid they're they may not like it. Tell your child they may not like it, but that it's worth it and you really want them to give it their best shot. What happens is by the time they get through the first or second section, all of the reasoning tools are the same. So they grow accustomed to anticipating what comes next. They know how to do it, And it becomes second nature. And so the process starts to energize them. They're like, dang, I can do this. And you know what? I'm working through things I hear on the news or on social media or conversations that my friends are having. Yes. I'm not so confused. I actually have something to say. And it's, that's coming into your own. That's what it means to be A moral agent, a reasoning being. It's positive. It's fun. It's energizing. It's contagious.
Timmy Eaton:And it's developmental when somebody discovers, wait. I do have feelings about this, and I care, and I can and I can say things. It like you said before It empowers people that are typically intimidated by being able to hold that conversation with somebody who sounds too smart about whatever they're talking about, and this empowers them. We my kids take a there's a thing here in Alberta called Wisdom Homeschooling, and they have classes that are very similar to what you're talking about. And it's the conversations that these kids from freshman to senior year. I I just did not have those in my high school life, and and it's impressive. It is really a matter of what is How what is the potential we see in our kids? And then what, what are we asking them to do? And and And I don't know. Do you have a sense that this really is a particular type of family that uh, that does the fathom the good? Or is it can it can it be people of all the demography
Elizabeth Sexton:I think it can be people of all sorts, but I would like I'm really glad you asked that question because I would actually like to reach out to your audience. And I believe we can format this. Right now, it's digital. And it had I have a variety of different tools, and it's it is reading heavy. But there's a variety of ways that I can present this material, and I really want feedback from people On what would work for them, I have the digital curriculum. I can put the whole thing in a PDF form. I can provide a course I have 1 course for adults, but I can also provide Sort of a parent's guide Mhmm. For the high school course. We've talked about doing mini courses. Would that be appealing to homeschoolers? Yeah. Those are good questions. Many courses on certain topics, like based on certain radical ideas. Like, how to address those ideas, the background, And ways that we can approach them.
Timmy Eaton:How long have the materials
Elizabeth Sexton:been available? I'm really still in startup. So so we've only really had it on the market for about 3 months. Oh, okay.
Ralph Hancock:And we're still developing further years courses. K? Yeah. We have
Timmy Eaton:What? If I'm just in my experience looking at homeschool curriculum and others and in teaching, I my without because I think all those are good questions, and I'd have to really spend time on them. But my knee jerk initial thought is to really and you guys know this, but it's to really niche. And because and that because you do have a very unique niche, and And sometimes the more specific. It actually lends itself to a broader audience because people say, okay. I know that they're really targeting this, but the principles that I see so honed in this niche lend themselves to other things that people and then you can get that feedback that you're talking about. But that anyway, That's my
Elizabeth Sexton:initial And, my passion is to see to see Canada and America and particularly the American founding to see the goodness of our nations Preserve. So I want to find ways to make this accessible to everyone.
Timmy Eaton:So So can I just ask 2 questions and then let's do that or maybe just 1, actually? 1 question to kinda finish off, and then let's say make sure we Let people know how to connect with you both. Thank you. Who are you aware of anyone or who would you say is doing a good job of what you're hoping to teach and change? Now I know that I know that you're obviously doing it because there's a gap. Right? That they no nobody writes an article just because If everyone's already said it, you're trying to find something that's new or nuanced or a gap in in the literature or whatever else. But in your looking around as as you've put this together, who is somebody that's a good resource and that is somebody that is is on aligned with some of the ideals that you are trying to help people see.
Ralph Hancock:I've had occasion to look at other things on the market, and I have I have friends In the business in 1 way or another, I have Mhmm. Colleagues at Hillsdale College, and they have a massive national and international outreach, And they do good things. Jim, I yes. The more I look around, the more I see the distinctiveness of what We are doing again, there there are many good curricula That reinforced Christian faith or that highlight sound principles of the American founding. Mhmm. But nobody is at once as may I use the word deep is intimidating. Nobody lays a foundation as deep on the 1 hand or is as Widely practical in the sense of addressing what is most urgently at stake In our civilizational crisis today as we are. I think it's impossible to address our situation Without recovering some roots of the great conversation or the Classical tradition of political philosophy. So with that, let me articulate this plea. Don't be afraid of the word political philosophy or of the highfalutin language of the question of the good. Don't assume that these Texts are beyond your kin Correct. Or don't really concern your practical life. There's a reason we're still talking about Socrates. And it's not just because professors get degrees and write articles about him. It's because he raised the question, how should I live? Mhmm. How should we best talk about good character? How do we live
Timmy Eaton:together? How do we
Ralph Hancock:live together? How do we govern ourselves? How can we think together about governing ourselves about the common good. Mhmm. That's not it's not some highfalutin Rocket science or ethereal theological language. It's the most practical questions drive deep Into the western tradition of thinking about the soul and the city, about character and about our political Community. So it's very practical. It takes some attention To in a way to get your mind on these tracks. But as both of you have noticed earlier, once you do that, it's Invigorating. It's like learning to serve a tennis ball is a complicated motion. But once you once you know the feeling of doing it, it's like, That's been good.
Elizabeth Sexton:Your mind's not getting it's not getting hooked by The, the ideas that are out there. You're not you're you have that clarity of mind. So you're not waste you know, you're not like what did that mean? Or Yeah. Should I feel bad about this? Or, yeah, maybe compassion is such and such, but it doesn't feel right. It's that sense of calm that you have when you're confident in your own moral understanding. And
Timmy Eaton:be confident to confront whatever it is that's being asked and then just ask your question. Ask your question. I think if I if I may 1 1 p 1 thing I think people like about this podcast is we do take these high ideals, and we bring them down to something that is, I don't mean to say down, but make it very accessible. Very matter of fact language. If I was talking about Fathom the Good and I was talking to a friend and I was just hanging out, and I would say, no. This is a great resource that helps people actually cultivate skills that they're not only just gonna take or prepare them for post secondary or career, but they're foundational ways to think through things. Yeah. And this is what we want for our kids to be able to address the questions and to have a really thought out opinion about what's going on in the world. And then to take your underpinnings or your you know, take your what you've been taught growing up to be able to confront these things instead of being like, woah. They're saying lots of big words. I'm not gonna talk to this guy because, he'll beat me in the conversation. Instead of being like, no. I believe this, and I've thought through this, and I've written, and I've developed confidence. And Anyway, so and I would just say this
Elizabeth Sexton:And not caving in to the dominant secular, Ideas it's essential. We need to protect our children, and we need to prepare them to live in the world without becoming A product of the world, so it's essential. But doing that is a team effort. I just Ralph has done his hard work. I caught on to it and Picked up the ball and did my part. I've got a product out there that's pretty darn good, but, it might not work people for everyone, it might people might have questions. People well, engage in it. Yep. And whatever questions you have, I'm so accessible. I want to know how to help because The whole purpose of this is to create a better world and write your
Timmy Eaton:own I was gonna say you care. You both care. You can feel the passion, and people will feel that, and they'll know that. Yeah.
Elizabeth Sexton:Yeah. It's a team effort, and so it Whatever the needs are out there in your community I wanna know what they are, And I'll do my best to use the skills and the tools that I have to provide that Mhmm. To get this the these ideas and skills to, people that are just
Timmy Eaton:like me. Yeah. Families of all backgrounds. And I really appreciate that. I appreciate that that willingness to be open to being contactable. You know, Not everybody is these days. And so and I've just a personal note, very thankful that you guys have been so communicated with me as we've set this up. And so thank you very much. That was a very fun conversation for me, and I appreciate all that I've learned. And I love what you guys are doing with Fathom the Good. Can you just let people know how to get in touch with you and where to find your resources?
Elizabeth Sexton:Yeah. So the website is w dot Fathom the good dot com. And my email is elizabeth with a z at Fathom the good dot com. elizabeth.fathomthegood.com. And I also wanna say thank you for all of the work that you and your wife are doing when I you're in our email interactions. Yes. Really impressed by your level of commitment and devotion, but also the joy that you seem to be having And doing this work, I'm really grateful for that, and thank you for taking the time to have us on and sent us. Giving us the opportunity to share what we
Timmy Eaton:have. No. Thank you very much. And And maybe sometime we can We can meet in person. I've got many family members that live down your way, and so maybe sometime we can get together. So Oh, for sure. Very much. Awesome. Absolutely. Know professor Hancock, if you wanted to give a connection to or if you wanna just do it through Fathom the Good. Or
Ralph Hancock:Oh, you can you can I'm happy to entertain questions or comments or just To make friends via email at Ralph underscore hamcock at b y u dot e d u. ralph_hancock@byu.edu. That's my BYU Email. That's the 1 I mainly use. Yeah, I'd be happy to hear from people who have heard this and might have a question about the Where I came from about all the philosophy Yeah. Behind this.
Timmy Eaton:Thank you very much to Elizabeth Sexton and and doctor Ralph Hancock for spending this hour, hour and a half with us, and hope you have a wonderful evening. Thank you. Thanks,
Elizabeth Sexton:Tim.
Timmy Eaton:That wraps up another edition of this golden hour podcast. If you haven't done so already, I would totally appreciate it if you would take a minute and give us a review in Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It helps out a lot. And if you've done that already, thank you much. Please consider sharing this show with friends and family members that you think would get something out of it, and thank you for listening and for your support. I'm your host, Tim Eaton. Until next time, remember to cherish this golden hour with your children and family.