This Golden Hour
In this podcast, we specifically serve new homeschool families through engaging conversations with homeschool parents and families at all levels of experience and expertise. Listeners will increase their confidence and assurance about their children's education and future while diminishing their fears. This podcast helps you know how to begin homeschooling, navigate challenges, and answer questions for all stages of the journey.
The name “This Golden Hour” has meaning. First, this name refers to the years parents have to raise and teach their children from birth to when they leave home to be on their own. As parents, we have a golden opportunity to teach and learn alongside our children during these formative and essential years of growth and development. Second, “This Golden Hour” points to this same period of childhood as the children’s chance to read, explore nature, and enjoy an inspiring atmosphere of family, love, and learning.
This Golden Hour
83. Dr. Keri Ingraham and Discovery Institute
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In today’s episode, we get to spend time with Dr. Keri Ingraham from Washington. Dr. Ingraham is a senior fellow of Discovery Institute and director of the Institute's American Center for Transforming Education. She's also a senior fellow at Independent Women's Forum. Her articles about education and public policy have been published in many media outlets. We enjoy a thought-provoking discussion on the current and future landscape of education in the United States. Dr. Ingraham shares her extensive experience in the field of education, discusses her advocacy for school choice and educational freedom, and explains the significant impact of COVID-19 on parents' decisions and perceptions of the public education system. She also delves into the various models of education savings accounts (ESAs), private school scholarships, and the hybrid schooling model, underscoring the importance of parental involvement in children’s education. With valuable insights into how states like Arizona have successfully implemented universal school choice and addressed concerns about public education reform, this episode offers listeners a comprehensive look at the transformative potential of educational freedom.
Connect with Dr. Keri D. Ingraham
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This Golden Hour
If we continue to send our children into a system where we're putting an adult in authority over them and saying, listen to your teacher today, but yet we know that worldview is in hostile conflict to what the parents are trying to do at home. That puts the child in a tremendously difficult situation. They're in conflict of who do I listen to about some of the most important concepts and beliefs
Timmy EatonHi, I'm Timmy Eaton, homeschool father of six and doctor of education. We've been homeschooling for more than 15 years and have watched our children go from birth to university successfully and completely without the school system. Homeschooling has grown tremendously in recent years and tons of parents are becoming interested in trying it out. But people have questions and concerns and misconceptions and lack the confidence to get started. New and seasoned homeschoolers are looking for more knowledge and peace and assurance to continue homeschooling. The guests and discussions on this podcast will empower anyone thinking of homeschooling to bring their kids home and start homeschooling. And homeschoolers at all stages of the journey will get what they need and want from these conversations. Thank you for joining us today and enjoy this episode of this Golden Hour Podcast as you exercise, drive, clean, or just chill. You're listening to this golden hour podcast. In today's episode, we get to spend time with Dr. Carrie Ingraham from Washington. Dr. Ingraham is a senior fellow of Discovery Institute and director of the Institute's American Center for Transforming Education. She's also a senior fellow. At independent women's forum, her articles about education and public policy have been published in many media outlets. We enjoy a thought provoking discussion on the current and future landscape of education in the United States. Dr. Ingraham shares her extensive experience in the field of education, discusses her advocacy for school choice and educational freedom. and explains the significant impact of COVID 19 on parents decisions and perceptions of the public education system. She also delves into the various models of education savings accounts, ESAs, private school scholarships, and the hybrid schooling model, underscoring the importance of parental involvement in children's education. With valuable insights into how states like Arizona have successfully implemented universal school choice, And addressed concerns about public education reform. This episode offers listeners a comprehensive look at transformative potential of educational freedom. Welcome back to this Golden Hour. We are very excited to have with us Dr. Cary Ingraham from the Washington area. Thank you so much for being with us.
Keri IngrahamYou bet. My pleasure.
I just want to give all of my listeners just a pretty good thorough bio of Dr. Ingraham, because it's awesome. And she is a senior fellow of Discovery Institute and director of the Institute's American Center for Transforming Education. She's also a senior fellow at Independent Women's Forum. Dr. Ingraham has been a guest on Fox news multiple times. Her articles have been published by the wall street journal, New York post, the Federalist real. Clear education, the Washington times, the epic times, or do you say epoch?
Keri IngrahamIt's typically said at epoch, I guess that's the correct way.
A Washington examiner. National review, the American spectator, daily caller, the daily wire, the Seattle times, Puget sound business journal, the daily signal, and a host of other media outlets. Fox news has featured her work prior to joining discovery Institute. She spent nearly two decades leading within the field of education as a national consultant requested conference speaker, head of school, virtual and hybrid academy director, which I'm excited to ask about administrator, classroom teacher, and athletic coach. So that was a mouthful, but so worth saying. So what a great background that you have. And maybe just give us a little bit of information on what you're doing right now. Just give some kind of synopsis on what's occupying your attention right now.
Keri IngrahamThank you so much for that very kind introduction. I spent 17 years as a K 12 school practitioner. So as you said, teacher, coach, consultant, and then four years ago moved over into the public policy side. So working on advancing legislation. Everything from education freedom, allowing parents to select the education avenue that will best serve their unique child. We're also working on education entrepreneurship, bringing in innovation, protecting parental rights, as well as reforming traditional public education.
Yes. And that'll keep you busy. So if you had to say what you're focused on the most out of all those responsibilities or efforts, what is it that you're really focused on lately?
Keri IngrahamEducation freedom without a doubt, because what happened during COVID with those prolonged school closures, his parents had a front row seat
Timmy Eatonto
Keri Ingrahamsee what was being taught each day to their child, as well as what was not being taught. And they saw their Children struggle academically. They also saw political and radical agendas taking up this valuable instruction time. things that were not age appropriate, that were not in their best interest and really should not be a part of the school day. And so when parents had that front row seat they became concerned and they spoke up. And when their voices were not heard or intentionally silenced, they started looking for other options. And as a result, the general public also had concerns. As this continued, they saw the power of the teacher unions, Private schools were open. Public schools, it just continued. There was all these reasons they couldn't reopen Despite the fact the neighboring schools were open
Timmy EatonAnd
Keri Ingrahamso with that there was a tremendous opportunity to advance school choice or we like to say education freedom So parents can select the education avenue not just a school That will best serve their child And that right now Is unique opportunity. And so that's what we're focused on is advancing that state by state throughout the United States, but that is going to lay the groundwork for public education reform. So the best way the fastest way in the most effective way to reform traditional public schools is allow families to exit. Put in universal school choice at the state level free market principles where there's competition it's going to spur innovation that's going to drive down costs but as a result research shows that just by having school choice in a community it benefits all kids even those kids that remain in the traditional public school because of competition those schools rise up they change their curriculum they're more transparent with the With parents about what's going on. And so education freedom is what I'm focused on. It's my passion and it's where we're seeing tremendous wins.
And I love that you're doing it and I think again, my audience is very interested in that. Can you tell us real quick just about the website, where to find things? I want to say that right off the bat, because I think it's a good thing to let my audience know, where can they find like these awesome articles and a lot of my audience is in the Canadian context. And I think you and I went back and forth on this, in our communications, but here, they're using the term voucher system in Alberta and they're trying to do that, but it seems really unlikely with the type of government we have, Alberta is different from most of the rest of Canada, but still very difficult to do any kind of measure like this. Like I think it would take a long time, but anyway, tell us where can we find like a lot of what you're talking about in your articles in particular?
Keri IngrahamYes, the website for Discovery Institute is discovery. org forward slash education. Once you're on that website, you'll be able to find a place to subscribe to receive our articles once a month via email. Information about each component of our work as I discussed education, freedom, protecting parental rights, public education reform, as well as education entrepreneurship and education innovation. So it's all easy to find out on the website discovery. org forward slash education and listeners can also follow me on X, formerly known as Twitter. It's my first name, Carrie, Ingraham, and that's on X.
Excellent. When you were talking about education freedom and the idea of universal school choice one of your articles that I really thought was so relevant to what's going on right now is that K 12 hybrid schooling is in high demand. And you start the article with that and ended as well with the idea that like 72 percent of parents are considering new options and 39 percent of them are desiring a hybrid option. And I know that we were moving in that direction before COVID, but like COVID obviously catapulted in both the U S context and Canadian. And that's why we such saw such a surge in homeschooling as well. And a legitimate surge, at the time it was like people were doing school at home, but they weren't philosophically doing homeschooling. And and that's where, my audience and I have thoughts, but. Can you talk about that a little bit? Just the idea of 72%. Did that surprise you? And where does that study come from? And just anything you want to talk about that many parents, that's a giant percentage, 72 percent of parents considering new options, which doesn't surprise me actually, but just, it's just so big. And then 30%, 39 percent wanting hybrid option. Just talk to anything you want about those numbers.
Keri IngrahamYou bet. You made such a great point pre COVID. Sending your child to the district assigned public school was just the default, parents, they just did that was a school, they went to wherever they were assigned when they were a child, homeschooling was considered, you know, well, that's weird. Very few people do that. That's not for our family.
Timmy EatonAnd
Keri Ingrahama lot of parents jobs were to working parents. Not working from home. That was not an option. There's not hybrid working for adults very often. No flexibility. And so the default was just this neighborhood public school. To your point with COVID, parents started to say, Hey, I don't like this option, there must be a better way. And they started looking and seeing, and all of a sudden, Homeschooling became really attractive
Timmy Eatonas
Keri Ingrahamwell as different delivery models where they could be more informed and more involved. And so the survey that you referenced, this came out in January of 2024, and it was a large scale survey of parents, and it showed, to your point, 72% are considering a new school option. 63 percent searched for it within the last year and 44 percent actually selected a new school option for their child over the last few years.
That's crazy.
Keri IngrahamCompletely changed up the landscape of education in the United States. And then, so those that were looking for a new school, another survey showed That 49 percent said that they would prefer their child to learn at home at least one day a week. 10 percent of that 49 percent want full time homeschool. In the U. S. it's about 5 percent today of all K 12 students that receive education at home, but If it was an option for those families, 10 percent want that, but then 39 percent say they desire somewhere within one to four days a week that their child's learning at home and so in hybrid style, they want more involvement and a similar poll that came out. This one came a few months later in March of 2024 showed that 64 percent of parents indicated That if they were looking for a new school for a child, they would select a hybrid school.
Timmy EatonAnd
Keri Ingrahamso it's a new day in education and it's exciting. And the number one factor to influence student learning is parental involvement. And so we are, we are. Teeing these kids up for success when moms and dads get more and more involved and parents are wanting that.
Timmy EatonYeah.
Yeah. Said. No, I appreciate that. I like what you said in that article. You said there's no better time for business leaders, educators, entrepreneurs, and parents to step into this space and meet this need. And so I love that there's this push for school choice. And and I know we're going to talk about this and we'll just organically get to this, but I just listened to a podcast a few months ago and it was the first introduction that I personally had to ESAs. And since then I've been trying to like, learn more about it. Can you talk a little bit about ESAs and where that's headed? And then also like distinguishing, I keep seeing the term five 29s and like that being an investment vehicle in a similar vein, but then there's five 29 ESAs. So anyway, just a little clarification on all that.
Keri IngrahamYes. It can be very confusing because every state does it different and what's been done historically legislation has changed as they've seen. This state did it this way and it reached more kids and it was more flexible and there was a better way to do it. And so states that had school choice initially, they've grown their programs, they've expanded, they've changed them. So I will walk you through all of that. Yeah, that would be awesome. It is confusing and it's a lot to keep up with. So as of 2020, so pre COVID in the United States, less than 500, 000 of the 52 million plus K 12 Students, public school students had access to school choice. So it was less than 1 percent of kids in America that had a school choice program, unless their parents could afford thousands of dollars a year for private school tuition money, or the feasibility to have an adulthood. Okay, fast forward now over the last four years, what's happened because of COVID, because families saw, they got more engaged, put pressure on their legislators. We now today have 12 states that have universal or near universal school choice. And what that means is that every child in the state is eligible. And I have to say near universal because of the 12 states, one state is not quite at a hundred percent of students being eligible. It's at 97%.
Timmy EatonSo basically
Keri Ingraham12 states have this universal school choice, free market principles, families can receive. A portion of their taxpayer money that would go to the public school system, but instead about half comes to them and they can allocate that. And now different states do it different. But of those 12 states that pass this universal school choice, eight states have used education savings accounts as a vehicle. Oh, I
Timmy Eatonsee
Keri Ingrahamstandard. So the most flexible and an education savings account. Allows the parents to have access to the funds to apply to whatever education avenue they select so they can use that for homeschool. They can use it for curriculum, testing students with special needs like their therapies, for example, that applies private school tuition, micro schools, hybrid schools, online. So very flexible.
What about like specifics within that? Sorry to interrupt you. What about like music lessons or if somebody wants to learn snowboarding or that kind of thing? Is it that flexible?
Keri IngrahamDepends on the state. And so there's great transparency and great accountability built into these. So when they log on to that digital portal, all of the providers that they're able to utilize in some states are already loaded in there. And so Parents don't have to directly pay. There's like the middleman where the funds just for extra accountability, go to the parents in this online portal intern, they click, they pay to buy the textbooks to pay that, music teacher or whatever it is. Other States, it works a little bit different where it's more like a debit card, they know what's eligible, what's not. And then there's accountability on, it's audited and checked to see. So it's a little bit different. And the great thing is that as more states get this, they're fleshing it out to see what serves parents best, what gives them the most variety of providers. And also providers are saying, Hey, I want to make sure that I have a gold standard product so that I can be a provider to all of these children that have a need.
Yeah. It's like you said, it really plays on the free market principles.
Keri IngrahamYes. And to the benefit of everybody. And then there's cost competition, so people have to be competitive and not overpriced their services. So lots of great things happening, but I just want to mention the other thing is parenters. It'd be great stewards of those funds because what they don't spend, it's not that they lose out on that. Like the public school, they have to spend X dollars every year, or they'll lose out on it. So there's a lot of wasteful spending. But the families what they don't spend in each given year can be safe. I'll college or career prep. Post secondary education. So it's an incredible system. It's helping parents today. It's helping parents with future expenses as well. So that's the gold standard education savings accounts. But I also want to mention, you talked about school vouchers. Vouchers have always gotten a bad rap. That term. We like to call them private school scholarships because that's really what they are. And we have three states now that have passed universal private school scholarships, so it's not quite as flexible. Those funds can't be applied to homeschool, but it was the right step for the state to open the door of free markets, and they're going to continue to work To, you know, I think all states eventually want to get to the universal school choice, at least with the Republican lawmakers. And then we also have one other state in there that makes the 12. They passed a universal tax credit, and that can be applied to private school tuitions or homeschooling expenses. So it's not fully as flexible as the education savings accounts at tax credit scholarship, but it can go to that. Private school or homeschool.
So I'd love to break it down almost to a very specific like hypothetical family. We could even use my family as an example. I'm in Alberta, but I've talked to many of my guests are in the United States, most of them. And, one of the biggest hesitancies that homeschool families have is government hands on. We, we want the hands out. And so if funding means accountability in the sense of driving curriculum and dictating what curriculum choice and other things, Then most homeschoolers, at least philosophical homeschoolers will opt out and they'll say we'd rather still struggle financially and maintain freedom. And so how does that work with them? And I know again, it's probably going to depend on state to state, but do you you know what I'm saying? Like they they're afraid of the accountability means. Okay, now I can now I have a say on what you study or what you elect to to put into your family's decision about the career path you're taking, or what you want to study in Alberta, they have this thing called Alberta programs of study. And you can opt out of those, which aren't my family does because we don't want the government telling us what to study. We want to study what is most beneficial for our children and the way that we see it. So how does that work?
Keri IngrahamYes I can speak to the United States and what the Democratic Party, who is very much in lockstep with the public school teacher unions, who do not want families to exit the system because they're trying to protect their union members jobs because they need more kids and need the monopoly. And they have convinced very successfully the homeschool community and they've even looped in pastors in Texas, for example, there's this organization. I think it's like pastors against school choice or something. Where they have deceived people into thinking that if you give people the option of exiting the Cato public school system, that there's going to be increased government regulation. You're going to lose your ability to homeschool. That is just not true. There is always going to be an attack on
Timmy EatonChristian
Keri Ingrahameducation, Catholic education, anything that's religious that is Taking kids from the very secular, woke K 12 public school system. There's always going to be an attack on that, but the money is not going to the school. It's going to the family. It's in an account and the family then pays the provider.
Timmy EatonAnd
Keri Ingrahamso in the private school scenario, that school is not going to come under any more regulations. Then without education savings accounts, private school scholarships, because the government is not giving money to the religious school or the private secular school. It's to the taxpayer to allocate. And there's all those checks and balances on what can be used far more than how public schools are accountable for spending their money.
Timmy EatonI see.
Keri IngrahamBut with homeschooling, it's the same thing. If they wanted to regulate homeschooling state by state, cause that's where it's governed in our country, it would be doing that. They would be increasing it. This doesn't affect that scenario any more likely than them increasing regulations, but the family takes those funds and they're going to providers that are providing services. And those providers are so incentivized. Yeah, it's in
their interest to have awesome stuff or else, why do I want to go to that provider? It's competition.
Keri IngrahamWhat we're seeing is public school teachers Are saying I want to exit this system. I love kids. I did not get into this to push radical political agendas and these crazy policies where I'm told to do things in secrets for moms and dads. They're exiting and they're becoming providers. Whether they start a micro school, a low cost private school, they become tutors, they start a homeschool co op. And we're seeing people from the inside of the public system exit, come over to the free market side, and their passion for education is being rebirthed, as well as for children. You're in homeschooling, kids at homeschool, Desire to learn. It cultivates their interest. They don't dread school. They truly enjoy it. And so it's a new day in education. There is a lot of fear. The left is working so hard to, make sure that people who should be in favor of this school choice, or against it but the fear is having some serious implications. Texas is one example historically where I think Texas is coming near, will pass, universal school choice or close to. But the other thing with it is if that homeschool family is so convinced that it's going to affect their rights, they simply don't have to take the money. But who are they to say, I have education freedom, I'm able to homeschool because I can afford the curriculum or whatnot, but I would want to vote against something that allows other families this. And so we've got to tell the homeschool community, this is not going to increase the regulation, but if you're afraid, you just opt out, you don't do it, but get behind other families so that they can have the rich experience of educating their own child like you have.
No, thank you. I, that, that's helpful. That, that clarifies some things. Cause when I think of it, just like when we stripped down all of the history of it and we just get down to the fundamental questions the divide for me is does one believe that the government has the say in the education or is it the family? And is it the parents? And that is, that's where all of this stems from. And so that's where some of these fears or concerns come from. Can we just do an example then? So let's say, cause I know like Florida is definitely huge into this. Wasn't Arizona the first state to, to do this?
Keri IngrahamTechnically West Virginia passed universal school choice in 2021. It was hung up legislatively with. Some pushback. So Arizona in 2022 under at the time Governor Doug Ducey,
Timmy Eatonthey
Keri Ingrahamwere the first in the nation to pass universal school choice as well as implement it. And Arizona is a great example to look at because they were a front runner. So we have the longest lead time of data since 2022. And for example, in Arizona, public school spending per student is around 15, 000 per year.
Timmy EatonRight.
Keri IngrahamFamily says, I would like to use that education savings accounts. All kids in the state of Arizona are eligible for that. So any family, regardless of income level, can opt out.
So the amount is 15, 000 ish for a typical, just public school kid. So if a family says, hey, I want to do the ESA, they can get basically half of that or almost half.
Keri IngrahamYes. So when the child opts out of that public system, the family then receives 7, 000 to 7, 500. If their child has special needs, it's a higher amount they receive.
Timmy EatonRight.
Keri IngrahamJust like the district receives higher funds to educate that child. And they can allocate that accordingly. And like I said, what they don't use in a given year, they can save for their child's post secondary education. But that's enormous savings to the state. Oh, yes.
Timmy EatonYes.
Keri IngrahamNow they have a Democrat governor who even before she was governor, she was very outspoken trying to block universal school choice because she's elected and her campaign is funded by the teacher unions. But she's been trying to block it even before she became governor. Then she went on this, fear tactic effort of saying, this is going to bankrupt our state. Like we cannot afford to give families any option besides a public school. Looking at the data that just came out in the first year for the state of Arizona, there was a 2 billion surplus in their budget.
And that's no surprise to homeschoolers because we know that for years, I remember reading an article in 2012 where homeschoolers saved American taxpayers 9. 9 billion that year. And I was just like, wow and they're doing it on their own. And so what you're saying is so relevant because this idea that you're going to bankrupt the state is crazy when you're creating that much savings for the taxpayer.
Keri IngrahamAbsolutely. And in Arizona, it's been so successful because it came on the heels of COVID, where parents said we absolutely do not want our child educated by these teachers, by these schools, and our children can't read on grade level. They're struggling. They can't do basic math. So they've exited by the masses. Saving the state, about 50 percent per child that leaves the system, it adds up very quickly when you have a state like Arizona, they've got 1. 1 million K 12 students will significant portion take advantage of this. So school choice benefits. It benefits the individual student. It benefits their family, but it also benefits the state when they adopt this because it saves the state money, but it also prepares kids for the workforce, which is going to have economic implications. It's going to change how kids vote when they're not just receiving. A Marxist socialism worldview anymore, and that's going to benefit the future of the state. So yes, it affects every individual child to their benefit when they have the option of how they're educated and parents can select something high quality and that aligns with their values. But it also has transforming effects on the state. And so states right now in our country are blue state. So it would be different. Democrat states, progressive states that are so against us because of relationship with the teacher unions. At some point, they are going to have to take notice because more and more people are leaving states and moving to states that are pro freedom, especially when it comes to the education of their children, nothing is more important to parents and their children. Yeah,
like pro freedom. And also, how do you argue with the math? Like nobody in the U S or Canada right now is saying that. They're having like, like the groceries are cheap and that gas is cheap. And I'm just saying that's so nobody's going to argue with the math of wow, I have like way more spending power because it's not being swallowed up in this. So what's the, I know this almost sounds like a naive question, but what's up with that? Like why is it that when you can see the benefit. I don't care what side of the aisle you're on, when you can see such a a clear benefit, why would somebody wa wanna block that? Is it really just a spread ideology? Is that really the reason?
Keri IngrahamSo what happens in the US is they tell people, that public school, that's a backbone of our community. What would you do without that neighboring public school? They try to fear the teachers into it as well, if families can exit the system, you're going to lose your job. Just because a family exit is the public school system. There's not fewer children to educate. There's just simply fewer public school children to educate, but we need education providers in micro schools, hybrid schools, homeschool co ops. And so they're using that strategy and because K 12 education is so massive with the number of employees we've got, yes, they've got so many employees, but they also collect those employees. portion of their paycheck in the form of member dues. And that's hundreds of millions of dollars a year that they put in to the progressive candidates campaigns to get them elected and reelected. So despite what their constituents want of legislators, they want school choice. They are not going to vote for it and they're going to continue to block it because that's how they're getting elected. So much corruption. It's not in the best interest of children, but the tide is turning. It's turning in these red states that are conservative. Eventually, I think it's going to turn in the states that have a mixture of, governor, House majority and Senate majority of the two parties, but in due time, as I said, those blue states, they will have to take notice.
And it's so beneficial for their families. I just don't, and even with due respect, as a teacher, like I've taught my whole life and have, graduate degrees with education. And if it came down to it, fundamentally, I would say yeah, take away my job. Because of what it's doing for our families and for our children. One thing I was going to ask you about is you had that article, it said Democrats are pro choice, but not when it comes to school choice, which is a surprise, especially when you run on this philosophy of compassion what's happening.
Keri IngrahamYes. Okay. So the eight states today that have the universal School choice with the most flexibility, which is education, savings accounts. Those states are Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Iowa, Louisiana, Utah, and West Virginia. Okay. But then there's four other states that have also passed it at the universal level. So open to every child, but it's more on the private school scholarship side, or the ability in Oklahoma to use it private school or, homeschool expenses. So the three that would just be private school vouchers, but still universal. Indiana, North Carolina, and Ohio. And then the state I mentioned a moment ago, Oklahoma, they have the tax credit scholarship where people can use a private school or for homeschool. So those are the states at the universal level, but there's actually 18 states that have passed an education savings account program. So much as it has happened post covid the momentum has been tremendous. So 18 states have it and it's to varying degrees, so it might just reach people to a certain income threshold or reach Children that have special needs. And so they're limited programs, but those states want to continue to expand them in future years.
Thank you. I appreciate you providing that. Is there somewhere somebody can go to get that information if they, don't collect it all from this interview?
Keri IngrahamYes. You bet. It's all out on our website. Again, it's discovery. org forward slash education. There's a search field out there. They can type in um, you know, states with education, freedom or education, savings accounts and a host of resources will pop up pointing.
Excellent. Oh, and I personally am interested in that. The name of your organization what does it say? The mission of the discoveries institutes, American center for transforming education is to transform the education system in the U S and then there's talk about reformation, right? Reforming the system. My question when I was like thinking about that and I was considering like what we have experienced as a homeschool family, especially considering the statistics you gave in the K through 12 article, is the public system worth reforming is my question. Like I've heard a lot of people talk about overhauling, which is seems like it's just naturally doing right now. It's just that like families are going to say I want what's best for my children in the future. And so it seems like it's actually not, I was going to say slowly, but it's actually going pretty quickly now that that so many people are choosing new options. Isn't it just worth it to say this is not an effective system. It's archaic in a lot of ways, especially with the increase in technology and the vast amount of options there are people maybe asking more questions about what is my education for? What am I trying to achieve with my education? I can't tell you how many interviews I've had. Where people are not at all saying, I want my kid to go to university. They're saying, I want my kid to gain education and learn, and then find the best way to have that happen. And if possible, without the university or without college, that have become kind of business models. Of what the education system is, that was a lot of stuff and I'll just let you feel however you want.
Keri IngrahamI would love to speak to that. And I've done some writing on this and work on this front, but to your point, higher education is not providing the return on investment for families that it used to. In the United States, there's 3 million fewer students enrolled in higher education since 2011. So prices are going up. The value is coming down. There's this mismatch. And then you also look at the college majors, the things that kids are, going into college, things that are being sold to them are promoted, join our, you know, School of whatever and study this. Those are not the high growth and high demand career fields. And there's such a mismatch, we're in this very information technology driven economy, and you've got a growing number of kids majoring in things like gender studies. That is not preparing them for the workforce that we need in our country, and it's almost coming to the point where it's not just going to affect our economy, but it's also a national security issue when we can't compete on the world stage. So as just one example, the international test that 15 year old students take around the world every couple of years, U. S. students, their scores are continuing to decline. So in the most recent test, the NAEP test, our students placed 9th in reading, 16th in science, and 34th in math. And so we are not going to be the front runner in the world if we're not putting out future citizens equipped that can even do basic math, 34 amongst developed nations. But back to your point about higher education, there was an article in the Wall Street Journal, it was a report that came out several months back. About six months ago, and it said that 50 percent of parents would prefer not to send their child to a four year college after high school, regardless of any obstacles, including finances, 50%. So it is a new day. Yes. There was a study done this year of over 800 companies, mid sized to large companies primarily, and of that, 45 percent of companies said that they plan to eliminate a bachelor's degree requirement for some of their positions. In this current year. So there's this immediate, push of employers to say just because somebody has a degree does not mean they're qualified and we're missing out on highly qualified individuals that have what we're looking for. Whether it's a work ethic, the attitude, or they're bringing the skills and knowledge we need, but they didn't go through. The four year college, we want to be able to hire them. So they are changing their requirements. They're seeing great success and more and more companies are doing that.
Yeah. No, thank you. Yeah, that's been my experience as well. And a lot of home education families. Are at an advantage because they've been learning this way, especially if they started it like from the get go doing that and they're just, they're they're learning how to learn and they're loving learning and that's, that, that is deadening in the public arena. And again not even a criticism. It's just so hard. Like when you have class sizes and ideologies and all these things that are going on in the system, it's hard to prepare them for the future that we're going to need. One, one other question I wanted to talk about with you and then maybe just something about your, your personal views on this is the idea like like your article about the hybrid model we talked about, but like you had that article about how to navigate your children's education and some of the tips that you had in there, which I thought were awesome, were so aligned with a lot of homeschool philosophy. It says, be proactive, get informed about classroom content, ask questions, volunteer. Connect with other parents, advocate for your child, research, education options, and then and then assuring people that they have what it takes to homeschool. What kind of instigated that article? How did that come to be?
Keri IngrahamMy Alma mater where I did my master's and my doctorate interviewed me just to write a piece about my work and what I was doing. And in the course of conversations that led up to that article that was published. I was referencing, that it's a new day in education and parents want to be more involved. And they need to be because of what's happening, they need to be aware, they need to know that it is okay to speak up, they should be talking to other moms and dads about what they're seeing, just validating their concerns like you are not alone, reminding them you are your child's primary educator, it is your job to protect their heart, their mind, your involvement in their education is essential. And so long. Parents have been told that the public school is the expert of their child's education. And that is simply not true. It's the moms and dads. I've known the children since birth. They've been with them day in and day out. They're going to be with that child long past the school year. They are the expert and they can figure out how to provide the academic learning. And so it came out just from conversations and they said, we've got to get this material out. And so they put together just the bullet point list. Again, you can find that on our website, discovery. org forward slash education. And in the search field, just type how to navigate your child's education. But in essence,
parents just make sure you're choosing wisely. You're staying informed and you're involved. It's going to be one of the greatest gifts that you can give your children. Yeah. Thank you. I just wanted to ask you as we wrap up and then obviously want to give you a chance to say anything else you'd like to say, but like for you personally, like when what drives you for this? Like what why do you care so much about this for real?
Keri IngrahamEvery individual child matters. These are God's Children. They're created in his image and ideas have consequences. And education can transform their future or it can rob them of their future. Could you imagine if you grow up and you're not reading proficiently, how that's going to hinder your ability to fulfill your passion, your calling in life, just those basic skills. So education Is essential. I want to make sure all kids have the opportunity to reach their full potential to be challenged to love learning to be inspired by discovery to find their interests, their strengths, but they've got to have solid foundation of reading, writing math to do those things. But then I also look at our culture and what's happening and thinking about. You know how those ideas have consequences. If we continue to send our children into a system where we're putting an adult in authority over them and saying, listen to your teacher today, but yet we know that worldview is in hostile conflict to what the parents are trying to do at home. That puts the child in a tremendously difficult situation. They're in conflict of who do I listen to about some of the most important concepts and beliefs while they're very impressionable. They're forming their ideas, they're being exposed to things. I just want to give your listeners a quote here. Bodhi T. Bachman Jr. and he says, We cannot continue to send our children to Caesar for their education and be surprised when they come home as Romans. You've got to make sure that your children are receiving an education that is laying the foundation for what you want for your child as far as not just their mind, but also their heart.
Yeah. Thank you. That's really good. We have six kids and our oldest is 20 and when we were researching education and my wife was really asking those fundamental questions, I'm sad to admit that if it came down to me, I would have just sent our kids to school because, it's the default. Decision to make and that's not a proactive decision. If somebody proactively knows about the options and then chooses that, then that's fine. That's a different story, but I, that wasn't it for me. Like my wife was asking the questions and then since then, obviously the last 20 years of studying and seeing the fruits of it, I'm not trying to go on a crusade of Hey, everyone should homeschool, but I am saying, Hey, do you know that there's options out there? Do you know that there's options? And then there's people like you, Dr. Ingraham, that are helping those other options improve and allowing families to have better choices. This has been an awesome interview and there's been so much information. I want to give you the last word, anything you want to say. And then I think we'll wrap up.
Keri IngrahamKeep doing what you're doing. If you're already homeschooled your sacrifices are worth it. It's going to be tremendously impactful, not just today in your child's life, but it's setting the course for their future. So be encouraged, stay at it. I know the days can be long the weeks can be challenging, but it is so worth it. And your child may not thank you today. They may not thank you next year, but there will be a point in their life where they will look back and they will see your sacrifice. They'll see your love and they will recognize with such gratitude, the transforming difference that you made in their life. Because you homeschooled them because you were involved in their education. So keep up the great job.
Thank you. Thank you very much. You guys, this has been Dr. Kerry Ingraham from Washington. So much things for us to consider and to to make decisions about. So thank you for being with us.
Keri IngrahamThank you. My pleasure.
That wraps up another edition of This Golden Hour podcast. If you haven't done so already, I would totally appreciate it if you would take a minute and give us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It helps out a lot. And if you've done that already, thank you much. Please consider sharing this show with friends and family members that you think would get something out of it. And thank you for listening and for your support. I'm your host, Tim Eaton. Until next time, remember to cherish this golden hour with your children and family.