This Golden Hour

114. Denmark and the World with Jesper & Cecilie Conrad

• Timothy Eaton

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In today’s episode, we get to spend time with Jesper and Cecilie Conrad from Denmark. Jesper and Cecilie are unschooling parents of four children, they’ve been traveling the world for ten years, and they are focused on intentional family living. Cecilie explains that unschooling emphasizes trust in the learning process, respects our children’s autonomy, and that it is not about having a fixed curriculum or specific academic outcomes. The Conrads describe their transition to a nomadic lifestyle, the challenges of building an online income, and the rewards of traveling as a family. They discuss the practicalities and mindset shifts required to live unconventionally. A key take-away from this episode is that childhood is irreplaceable, and the most important outcomes are not academic, but relational—knowing oneself, building strong family bonds, and developing the confidence to navigate life.

Connect with Jesper & Cecilie

Better Dad Institute

The Self-Directed Podcast

The Ladies Fixing the World Podcast

Resources

Evolved Nest


This Golden Hour

Cecilie Conrad:

when you unschool, there's no curriculum there's no attachment to any outcome, especially not academically. So the children, we respect that the hours in this life where their heart is beating and their breathing air belong to them. So I'm not here to tell them what to do. I'm not here to define what makes sense for them and what they should do, or what they should learn. I don't know. It's about trusting the process. It's about knowing that learning happens all the time.

Timmy Eaton:

Hi. I am Timmy Eaton, homeschool father of six and Doctor of Education. We've been homeschooling for more than 15 years and have watched our children go from birth to university successfully and completely without the school system. Homeschooling has grown tremendously in recent years, and tons of parents are becoming interested in trying it out, but people have questions and concerns and misconceptions and lack the confidence to get started. New and seasoned homeschoolers are looking for more knowledge and peace and assurance to continue. New homeschooling. The guests and discussions on this podcast will empower anyone thinking of homeschooling to bring their kids home and start homeschooling and homeschoolers at all stages of the journey will get what they need and want from these conversations. Thank you for joining us today and enjoy this episode of This Golden Hour podcast. As you exercise, drive clean or just chill. You are listening to this Golden Hour podcast. In today's episode, we get to spend time with Jasper and Cecilia. Conrad from Denmark, Jesper and Cecilia are unschooling parents of four children. They've been traveling around the world for 10 years, and they're focused on intentional family living. Cecilia explains that unschooling emphasizes trust in the learning process, respects our children's autonomy, and that it is not about having a fixed curriculum or specific academic outcomes. The Conrads described their transition to a nomadic lifestyle, the challenges of building an online income and the rewards of traveling as a family. They discussed the practicalities and mindset shifts required to live unconventionally. A key takeaway from this episode is that childhood is irreplaceable and the most important outcomes are not academic, but relational, knowing oneself, building strong family bonds, and developing the confidence to navigate life.

Jesper Conrad:

Today we are together with Tim Eaton from this Golden Hour and you are together with us today as we are doing a dual podcast thing.

Timmy Eaton:

I actually wanted to do an introduction so unschooling family, I guess you guys would say, of four children ranging from, is it 13 to 26? Your kids right now?

Cecilie Conrad:

Yes. At this point, yes. Yeah. Done.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah. And then self-proclaimed, globe trotters, world travelers, and nomadic. And we wanna learn about that. I saw that you had interviewed Blake Bowles, who I've al also interviewed, and I listened to that episode so good. Plant-based, we'll talk about that unschooling family and attachment parenting. Dr. Neufeld. So we'll talk about, to hold onto your kids. Jasper is the founder of Better Dad Institute, and I'm interested to learn about what an evolved nest is. I think I have the idea, but I thought that was cool. And also both Jasper and Cecilia are the hosts of the Self-Directed podcast, and so that's quite the resume there. Tell us something or let's talk about world traveling.'cause that's something that my wife and I think we would like to do, our kids now are 12 to 21. We've got six kids. But we've never I don't work from home. Like I actually teach religious education for my living. And so I'm definitely stuck to the job but I always admire people that are doing that. So tell us about that. How did that start and then what has it gotten to

Jesper Conrad:

I can stop with that one. He's surprised. That's a question. So Denmark has. Around eight months of winter. It can feel like sometimes,

Cecilie Conrad:

I'm just telling you it's a warm day today.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad:

In September.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad:

People say it's nice and it's

Timmy Eaton:

I'm in Canada, so it's not that different maybe, so

Cecilie Conrad:

I'm wearing my woolen base layer.

Jesper Conrad:

Yeah, no. So there's many reasons and many different versions Actually.

Cecilie Conrad:

The weather is not,

Jesper Conrad:

no, the weather is not the biggest one. We have as many people been on vacation together and I remember in, I think it was in 13, we were in southern France at winter have driven down there in a car and we was looking out over the ocean. There was a week left or something, and we looked at each other and say, Hey, this could be nice just to do this, be where we wanted to. Yeah. And now we have been living that life since 18 where we are able to stay, where we would like to stay and travel with the spring or the summer. I don't like to travel with the winter as much. Yes. Yeah. But there's

Cecilie Conrad:

something wrong with our plan for November. I'm just telling you. Yes. For that exact reason. Really? Why is that? Because we're con contemplating going to Denmark, which is more for Christmas than November than my mind. The worst time of year. Maybe not. This is not, wait,

Timmy Eaton:

Where are you right now?

Cecilie Conrad:

We are in Denmark right now.

Timmy Eaton:

Oh, you are? Okay.

Cecilie Conrad:

Yes.

Jesper Conrad:

Yeah. We have been meeting on

Cecilie Conrad:

Tuesday, Wednesday.

Jesper Conrad:

Yeah. Wednesday we are going to towards Spain, where we'll be a month. There's many versions of the story. I think a lot of people would like to travel a lot. We would so the reasons are not that big a difference. We made it happen, and that takes time and there's so many dialogues we had upfront. There's so much fear we had upfront and we had so many problems that never came to be before we started. But one of the things that often needs to be ticked off is figuring out how to make an income online. I used three years on that project where I had a daytime job, worked in the morning, worked in the evening until I built up some clients on the side, and I was like, Hey, yes I dare do it now. When you homeschool, and I think that's maybe the more interesting part of the dialogue is when you homeschool and are the not at home person. For example, the, I'm the dad working in an office and I can see my family enjoy whatever sun there is during a day. The Danish windows we have I could drive to work in darkness and drive home in darkness. Yeah. But I could see my wife and kids have been out in the garden in those chilly but sunny the hours that were in the middle of the day. When you homeschool, it becomes weird that you are forced to live in one place based on the decision of that you want. To work in an office. So we, we asked ourselves, do we want this life and can we change it? And then we ended up deciding we wanted to change it. And it took time, of course, but it's really nice. I

Timmy Eaton:

So once you built your business up to a point and you do, is it digital marketing or what do you do?

Jesper Conrad:

Yeah, it is a business strategy and marketing. And my backstory is I have worked 22 years in the media industry in Denmark and got more and more sick and tired of it. It don't, work together with my values. So I changed in Denmark goal already. My, my work to be still from the marketing background, but in sync with my values worked for nonprofits and charities and stuff like that. So it is still using the tools and tricks from the industry Yeah. From the marketing, but using it for the greater good, you would say?

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah. Yeah. And in your way and allowing you, or affording you the way to do the lifestyle you want, so did you guys choose to homeschool before you started doing the traveling or what was the chronology of things I guess that maybe that's the question, and then I wanna come back to this idea of like, how do you do that anyway with four kids? And for how long you guys have done it? Like how did you hear about homeschooling? I'm interested to know about how many homeschoolers there are in Denmark and in Europe in general, because in the US and Canada it's bursting, but what is it like where you guys are from and how did you decide to do that?

Cecilie Conrad:

So we are from Denmark where we left Denmark more than seven years ago.

Timmy Eaton:

Okay.

Cecilie Conrad:

Our generation of home education caters in Denmark was a very avant-garde first moving generation. There were not many homeschoolers when we started homeschooling.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad:

As in most people had never heard about it. If they heard about the term, they knew about some American weirdos doing it. Yep. Or it was just, or it was extreme religion, something going on.

Timmy Eaton:

Yes.

Cecilie Conrad:

And it was just really not a thing. And you're asking me how it is here now, and I actually basically can't answer the question. I don't live here. I happen to be here right now as we are recording, but I'm just listening. I think it's exploded. I don't know. It's legal

Timmy Eaton:

though. Like you can do it,

Cecilie Conrad:

it's legal. So it's a legal right. We have the right in our constitution, so it's very hard to take it away from us. We're surrounded with countries where, we have Sweden where it's very illegal. We have Norway where it's legal as our neighboring countries. Poland, I'm not sure the exact how it is there. I think it's legal, but under some restrictions. Yeah. Then you have Germany very legal.

Timmy Eaton:

Very illegal there.

Cecilie Conrad:

Illegal, yeah. Is

Timmy Eaton:

that right? Okay.

Cecilie Conrad:

Yeah. It's the hardest one is Sweden. It's very hard to get away with it in Sweden. As in, I've actually never heard a story of a family succeeding with getting away with it in Sweden. Wow. Whereas in Germany, there are ways around it. We have a lot of people from Sweden living here for that reason.

Timmy Eaton:

Hmm.

Cecilie Conrad:

Spanish culture and Danish culture, they're parallel and the language is almost same. You can learn pretty quickly. And so it's easy to move to Denmark if you're Swedish. And then you can homeschool.

Timmy Eaton:

But you didn't hear about homeschooling in that philosophy until you were out of Denmark? Like you heard about it somewhere else? Like how did you guys get into

Cecilie Conrad:

no, we started homeschooling way before we left, way before we started traveling. Yeah. Yeah. I can't remember the number years. It

Jesper Conrad:

was actually because we had a friend on the same road and she decided to homeschool her kid because he had severe allergies. And she was, if you looked at her back then she was a person who wouldn't have chosen homeschooling. Due to the circumstances of her kid being allergic in a way where the system couldn't care for him. She looked into everything very methodically and was like, huh, there's this thing called homeschooling. Let's do that. Can

Cecilie Conrad:

I? Yeah, that's true. But it's also true that she happened to have a friend

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad:

Who was an unschooler and she was one of the, at the time maybe

Timmy Eaton:

pioneers

Cecilie Conrad:

families in Denmark who was homeschooling. I really think maybe it was 20, I can't remember the number. It was really small. And so you guys would

Timmy Eaton:

be pioneers too in, in Denmark. And

Cecilie Conrad:

so we were like second movers maybe. Wow. And in our generation, we had a great group of, I don't know what to say, maybe 15, 20 families who knew each other and we didn't live nearby each other. We had to drive cars and we had to put in an effort to see each other, but we were. Pretty, lots of us were around and in Copenhagen and it's not that bit big of a city. So we could have some sort of, network and the kids could know other kids who didn't go to school. But it was, we started out pretty lonely.

Timmy Eaton:

So what year are we talking ish?

Cecilie Conrad:

So that was late nineties. Storm did not start in school, which is

Timmy Eaton:

1212. Oh, 2012. 12. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So in Denmark in that area, it probably was after two thousands where anybody really started homeschooling.

Jesper Conrad:

Yes. There had been groups and people. Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad:

Homeschooling is mentioned in our constitution and there are many versions of home education. We actually had a minister of education who was homeschooled until seventh grade.

Timmy Eaton:

No way.

Cecilie Conrad:

And he's what, 40 years older than, I don't know. That's a long time ago. So it's not like we were the only ones. It happens here and there, but it wasn't a movement as such.

Timmy Eaton:

So how was that received by other people? Like what did your families think? What did your friends think? Here in, in US and in Canada, it's so common that unless you were like a, second generation homeschool family people just see it as weird. And then now it's gotten to the point, I wrote a dissertation on home education at the University of Alberta. And you see the movement from the resurgence of home education in the mid 1970s. Like in, in the US and then the way it's spread now and after COVID, it is the fastest growing form of education in US and Canada. But like by far right now. And it's totally accepted, which is so weird to those of us who started 17 years ago, and especially those that started in the seventies and eighties. What was the reception like for you guys?

Cecilie Conrad:

Not easy.

Jesper Conrad:

No. Everything you can imagine about

Cecilie Conrad:

all the things we cope with. All the things. Yeah. And actually we still do, I, it's not easy and our government's not supporting supportive and it's, but it's become a running joke in our family now. We don't really care much about it. Yeah.

Timmy Eaton:

You like, who care anymore?

Cecilie Conrad:

It's just whatever, they ask all the stupid questions, it's all the same stupid questions and they don't understand the full picture and whatever. It's not my job to teach them the full picture. It's their choice to not.

Timmy Eaton:

Is that true for your families too? Like your like No, because

Cecilie Conrad:

over the years they, no, they're fine.

Jesper Conrad:

Yeah. Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad:

Cool. They're fine. Do we get any?

Jesper Conrad:

No, I think there's one thing that has changed it's fine is us we have changed from, and I think a lot of homeschoolers and unschoolers have this journey. When you start down the path of choosing something different than normal society, you are often on the barricades where you are like waving the flag and every time someone, you could meet them in the supermarket saying, oh, so you're not in school today. Yeah. Just actually being polite. Then you start a campaign for homeschooling or a defense for homeschooling.

Timmy Eaton:

I know.

Jesper Conrad:

And yeah, and I've reached a point now this. I don't know, what is it 13 years down the road for us where we are more like, Hey, they're actually just polite. We, they, I don't want to have the conversation. They don't wanna have. Yeah. Same with us, man. Yeah. Yeah.

Timmy Eaton:

That's good.

Cecilie Conrad:

But I feel like you still have this mainstream thing. There is still this idea and it's hard to get around it. We've been living outside of that idea for a very long time Now, that idea about that this has to be, it's like an axiom, the school, it's like and it's still part of our reality. There's still this whole measurement of what our children didn't learn because they're unschooled, right. And. I meet that question still quite often and I don't say it, but I feel like talking about, so yeah, we can talk about what my children didn't learn. Do you wanna have a conversation about what your children didn't learn

Timmy Eaton:

And what your children did learn of versus Exactly. Like Exactly.

Cecilie Conrad:

It's they, yes. They don't do the school format version of things. That's not the life they've had. And there are lots of things that I also, it's the kind of, it's the linguistics around it. Oh, you've only been homeschooled,

Timmy Eaton:

right? Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad:

As in as if it was an inferior version of life. Or what else? Yeah. You've got holes in your knowledge. No, I've got a different, I've, amen.

Timmy Eaton:

A

Cecilie Conrad:

different what's the word for patchwork, yeah. It's not the group of things that some government decided has to be the curriculum. That's the only combination of tools in a box that would ever work for anyone. It's as if there are just other tools in that box.

Timmy Eaton:

And it's so audacious, the assumption that like even family to family, like that the purpose that you have for your family is the aligns Exactly. With the purpose I have for my family. That's so weird that we have accepted that for so long in societies that like, here are the basic things. Sure, there's things that we share in common, but the idea that like, my values should be your values, so how come your kids haven't learned this or that? And it's what a weird audacious assumption that I wanted to match what your family does. It's and so that's what I wanted to ask you is why did you pull the trigger? Why did you say, no, let's do this. Like we like this lifestyle. What was it that appealed to you guys so much? If somebody were to say what do you, what were your main motivations to start? How have those motivations evolved over the years?

Cecilie Conrad:

It was a slippery slope. I can I talk for

Jesper Conrad:

Yeah, please.

Cecilie Conrad:

Because it's easy to pull the cancer card, right? It's part of the story that I had a severe cancer in 2010 and when I came out of that, I had been away from my children for a long time, from our children for a long time. And we didn't know for how long I would survive after treatment. So maybe they should just have as much time with their mom as they can have at this point. Yeah. This golden hour. That's the name of this

Timmy Eaton:

podcast, right? This golden hour. You have to, a certain amount of time. Yeah. At

Cecilie Conrad:

point, it was just a question of simple. It came down the final de decision of taking them out. It was, this was institutions, so they were really small. It's before school years. So this was kindergarten nursery, basically we had a division of labor that my in-laws would pick them up once a week and my husband would do it twice a week, and I would do it the other twice a week. I was weak after the cancer, and then there came a big snowfall and I was like, I can't walk that snow. Why do I have to walk all the way to get my kid? I wanted to be with them, obviously, I, that's all I wanted after six months in the hospital. Yeah. Can't they just stay home and I don't have to walk? All that stuff. I can't get through that. So I have to muscle that, why don't they just stay with me? Why do we even take them out of the house in the morning? Of course, the idea had been, we'd been playing with it, but it felt weird and I was weak and did we have the energy, all the things, and we had the threat of the cancer also. We didn't know. Am I going back into hospital? But then there was that snowfall at the end. It was like, no, forget it. This would, it doesn't make sense

Timmy Eaton:

so it was just like common sense stuff, right? Like, why are we doing this when it's so hard and I just wanna be with my kids? And

Cecilie Conrad:

it wasn't like a big decis. It was big, but it wasn't long term because there was no long term in our minds, it was very, and you weren't

Timmy Eaton:

worried about their like, like academics per se. I'm saying like, because that's what a lot of people are, put off. Because they're like, how does this work out? And at least in the cultures here in North America, they're so put off by that. That came

Cecilie Conrad:

later. That came later. So we had, at the time we had, we had a 3-year-old, we had a 6-year-old and we had a 9-year-old. And the 9-year-old wanted to stay in school. She was in a democratic school. It was a beautiful place and she'd just been through all the shock of me being sick and she liked being out. It was not about academics, it was about friends playing the guitar and

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad:

Yeah, talking. And it was a very free school. She spent a lot of time reading novels and Cool. Just hanging out. It was great. So she stayed the two little ones who took out of nursery, kindergarten. It was like a, an eye-opening thing to have cancer, like, why are we even doing this? And then we have to wait a while because so it's about two years later. Our son was supposed to start school and he did not want to start school basically. And we had friends who homeschooled or, yeah, we, yeah, we did because of the home before school thing we were in the home family life groups and we started to know people who were homeschooling and it wasn't that weird any longer, and the oldest one was still in school, but the second child was very, he was very pro polite and nice about it, saying, I don't think this is for me. Being six years old, not wanting to start school, just, I just don't think, this is just not. My type of thing.

Timmy Eaton:

And this is all still in, in Denmark, right? This is before you guys started traveling?

Cecilie Conrad:

We was just living the regular life in Denmark, except I was taking, I was a stay at home mom. Yeah.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah. And you hadn't moved obviously Jasper to working at home? No. Everything was office. I

Cecilie Conrad:

was at home with the kids, everything. We had a house and garden and, it was just, everything was quite normal. We

Jesper Conrad:

had started exploring traveling a little because we got our son who is now 13. That kind

Cecilie Conrad:

of sounds wrong. We've been traveling a lot. We had been traveling our entire life. Yeah. Let me rephrase it, but you wanna talk about car? Yeah, I

Jesper Conrad:

wanna talk about f our son who is now 13, he came as a surprise after the cancer. And in Denmark, the rules are if you have a wife. Who gets a child and she still have a deadly disease, then you as the man can take full paternity leave. To make sure that she's cared for. And I got into a little argument with my boss who was super annoying and only wanted to give me a little part extra time. And I was like, okay. I go in, read the rules, and then I went back to her and say, okay, I will just stay away the whole year instead of just two more weeks. I knew I would get fired when I got back after it, but worth an hour of that year. Amen. We decided to just get the most out of that year, and we were nervous travelers. We bought a car and went on a hundred day road trip throughout Europe with a four month old baby, and it was. Fantastic. And then I was at home with them the year I started back at work, got fired, needed to find a new job, and then came the summer and STO didn't want to start school, and it is a paradigm shift in many ways when it comes from the child and not from the parents because it feels weird. You need to start asking yourself all these questions where about why not do the normal kind of things. Everyone goes to school and get out, go to university and that how life is. Yeah, you have been like drilled in, that's life and totally go that way. But we got the bumps on the way in the terms of the cancer and a surprise baby who is now 13 years old and a fantastic young man.

Timmy Eaton:

Oh.

Jesper Conrad:

And then we started asking more and more questions and I don't think we really have stopped asking some questions. It's also part of

Cecilie Conrad:

the reason for the traveling was like once you start home educating, and then if you go all the way and you start unschooling it, it all unravels. And it's not it's not like we're not. Extreme, I would say, but maybe that's just from my point of view.

Timmy Eaton:

No, I know. It's once you've been doing something for a while, it looks like that to others, but you're just going, dude, we're just like making decisions and doing things naturally. Talk about that a little bit, like when people distinguish that, people always wanna distinguish homeschooling and unschooling and you guys, say unschooling and I see strands of all of it. But like, how do you differ, maybe not even differentiate, but how do you define unschooling? Like basically what does education look like in, in the way that you guys view it?

Cecilie Conrad:

So you did the full introduction of who we are and what we're doing, but you've got the other podcast that we're making, the one that's called The Ladies Fixing the World. That I'm hosting. That I'm hosting without yesper. Yeah, no. Tell us about that. Hosted with well, ladies uh, and uh, so what's it called

Timmy Eaton:

again? Sorry? It's called The

Cecilie Conrad:

Ladies Fixing the

Timmy Eaton:

World. Ladies Fixing the World. I'm sorry, I didn't say that.

Cecilie Conrad:

Oh, it's fine. It's just all about unschooling. Unschooling only very long format where I talk with wise women who are also unschoolers. And defining unschooling can be quite complicated. If you go to season two, episode one, I'm pretty sure that one is a full two hours about how to define unschooling. Cool. But the basic structure, a simple way of defining it is to say that when you unschool, there's no curriculum there's no attachment to any outcome, especially not academically. So the children, we respect that the hours in this life where their heart is beating and their breathing air belong to them. So I'm not here to tell them what to do. I'm not here to define what makes sense for them and what they should do, or what they should learn. I don't know. It's about trusting the process. It's about knowing that learning happens all the time. It's very hard to stop people from learning. I'm learning right now. And just trusting that a child growing up over those 10 years, let's say from six to 16. If they're not in school, they have a lot of hours on their hands that they wouldn't have had they been in school. And we trust that whatever they choose to do with those hours will be as good. An education will just be different, but they will be 16 years old ready for next chapter, standing on a different cliff. But it's still a cliff. Yeah. It's not

Jesper Conrad:

quicksand. Is it called quick? Is it called quicksand? It's

Cecilie Conrad:

different and it's stable and so so maybe that's what unschooling is. There's no demands like that. And we keep questioning our. Ideas about what should be and how things should unfold. And whenever there's a value or a judgment, we have to stop, we the parents and think about it and maybe have a discussion with the children about it. I grew up in a different way from you. To me, the world looks like this and I have to and now I'm thinking this or feeling this. I have this reaction to our life as it is, or your life as it is, or this situation. Can we unpack this together and figure out what's up and down? And,

Timmy Eaton:

I grew up in Chicago, like that's where I grew up my whole life. And I went to a high school that was pretty like academic, I guess. like it was just that kind of area in the northwest suburbs of Chicago. And I'm just in my head listening to people that would just hear this kind of thing. Especially we've been homeschooling for 17 plus years and. And they would just be like okay, but how do you get into university? And, it's just like what Jasper was saying, like there's this idea of this is the way to do things and it's not necessarily So not that you have to respond to people, but I'm saying like, how do you guys feel that, like just the future of your children?

Jesper Conrad:

Yes. So I will start with sharing a dialogue I had with my father when I chose to focus on being a creative young man instead of going to university. And he said I will be happy if you take the high school. Then it would be easier for you if you decide to choose something else later. But when I started, what he actually said was the work I have now. There was no education for it when I was a young man. And the same for me. I ended up in a career where there was no university to do online marketing or understand working with the web. That's a great point, man. The IT university in Denmark started the year I had my first full-time job inside the media industry as a online web editor. So it was weird. I actually had to ask myself one point, do I want to take an education that take five years to get a job I already have? Yeah that's just stupid. So with that, I'm saying we don't necessarily know what our kids' future will be, but my goal is that they as persons have a drive and motivations to go towards what they want and then go over the hurdles they will meet.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah.

Jesper Conrad:

For example, I have not been in university. For me, it holds no merits or golden stars at all. I couldn't care less if you have been to university or not. It's not in my life as an important part. I love

Timmy Eaton:

it, man.

Jesper Conrad:

But my children, both of the two who are now 17 and 19, they're talking about they want to go to university and then they're actually taking the steps needed, whatever that may be. Right now they are looking at taking what equals the high school, but just online because that is what they want. Yeah. And I'm asking them, are you sure you want that? Because you can actually study. Whatever you want to study outside the format of university. Yes. And we come from a country where they get the education for free taxpayer base.

Cecilie Conrad:

It's not free.

Jesper Conrad:

It's not free. You pay for it through your taxes of course, but it's

Cecilie Conrad:

free at the point of receiving it. When you take No, that's

Timmy Eaton:

Like when Canada talks about it's free healthcare. And I'm like, that is the, that is not true. But it's

Jesper Conrad:

an exchange that is you should ask yourself if you move into a country, but don't to one day change a lot of

Cecilie Conrad:

personal debt. Yeah. And you can do it. Yeah.

Timmy Eaton:

No, IJI love what you said about your dad. That's just like what I am doing. Had no connection to that. And and when I hear about you guys traveling and I wanna hear more about your traveling here, but like the wide exposure and education that is, people always try to confine education to a certain definition or a certain place, but man, I think of like the confidence that your kids must have. Knowing how to navigate travel and the education that comes from that. And you're not just reading about something. You're living in those areas. You're tasting their foods. You're like, I can just tell that you feel confident that we're not worried. Like they've been loved, they've been nurtured, all of that is more important. And when it comes to academics, that's just a, like a blessing as a byproduct of just having a good life. Yeah.

Jesper Conrad:

Jimmy, I will also just point in when you ask questions, I answer from an ideal. Have I been worried? Yes, indeed. Have I had this nights where I couldn't sleep because I was like, how will it go? Have it ruined their life? Yes, of course. Yeah. But I answer from my beliefs in this that we are doing, but Oh, yes. The fear is real. The, of course, confusion, all the long hours of talking about things about your parents, man,

Timmy Eaton:

your parents of course. And you care about your kids

Cecilie Conrad:

a different shot at this one. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think there, there's another thing to talk about. Unschooling is a choice we made to respect our children's freedom and individuality and entry path to this life, trusting that. They should grow up with unconditional love and all the support we can give them. Exploring, being playful, figuring out who they are, where they are what's up with this life. And when they are young. Now we have two who are older teenagers, and when they're at that point think there's a shift you have a handful of children, you've seen that change as well. More than a handful as well. And something happens, and where I could go on the Barts and start burning things and throwing things is to fight for that freedom for younger children.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad:

Because we are really crushing their lives by stealing all their hours and telling them what to do, and telling them whether they did it well or not, and crushing their self-esteem, splitting families apart, all these things. I don't think we could agree more.

Timmy Eaton:

Yes.

Cecilie Conrad:

But now we're talking about high school and university and to me that is so different, especially if the children have been home educated. Preferably from my point of view. Unschooled.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad:

Because then you have to think about the concept of voluntary education. So the whole idea of unschooling is also based on everything is voluntary. You do what you want to do, you do things that make sense to you to do. Yeah, you do things to cooperate not to comply. That's very different. And now if you take a education because you want to, it comes from inside the child, not from inside the parents or inside the culture. Of course it does as well. This is all a big fat mix of everything. Yes, of course. But when you are 17 years old and you choose, actually I want a university degree, not to get a fancy job, but for fancies, I want to study this thing because

Timmy Eaton:

I'm interested.

Cecilie Conrad:

I find it very interesting and I would like to focus on it for five years. In order to get to the university level of stuff, I have to do this. I'm saying high school not, it's not the same now it's not the same system is over there, but it is an equivalent of high school. You have to do that, otherwise you're not getting in. And then they voluntarily choose, I will do this because I wanna get there. That's completely different. It has nothing to do with pushing a 10-year-old to do trigonometry when he doesn't feel like it, telling him he's a bad person with some combination of letters and giving him a little tablet if he can't sit still, that's not a fun tablet. That's like an on your tongue thing. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like we can't even talk, why are we using the same words, school education stuff about these situations? Because the first one in many cases, I'd even say there's some sort of violence to it. The kids have no freedom. They have no way of speaking up yet you have an entire culture full of stories of how kids hate school.

Timmy Eaton:

We all agree. It's like full. Yeah. Read

Cecilie Conrad:

Calvin and Hobbes, read. Yeah. Just read, see all the things. If it has to do with childhood no.

Timmy Eaton:

I teach every day and I hear it. I hear it right from their voices. You don't

Cecilie Conrad:

wanna do it. We can't wait for vacation. We, it makes no sense. The teacher's, the monster, all of these things. We all agree. Yet we do it to our children.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah.'cause we don't trust the process like you're saying. And then another just very cultural real thing is like you said, if they've been nurtured that way in those primary years, I call the primary years and they've just been loved and exposed to things and read to, and read and whatever just pursue their actual, what they want and their hearts desires. And then they get to the high school years and they start going, I'm really interested in this. The thing that's in it, it's inevitable is this worry. Jesper said, he was talking in ideals and I get that, but yeah you gotta pay for stuff and you gotta make money. And so many people pursue. A job because it, on the other end, it's gonna pay them and then provide,'cause not all couples start out saying, we're hoping to have seven kids, or we're hoping to have two kids. A lot of them say, we'll take it a child at a time and see how it works. Or a lot of'em say we are not doing more than two, or whatever they say. So what about the money concern and just providing for a family and are you guys, is the ideal that our children just don't worry about that and it'll take care of itself? Or is it like, no, you do have to be more deliberate and intentional about actually how am I gonna make money?

Jesper Conrad:

I, I have the kids.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah. Good point. Both and I've actually listened to your I listened to your episode that you guys had about the course you have about money and harmony. And yeah, fun. And you and you actually answer some of that there, that relationship with money and finances and Yeah. There's a whole philosophy behind, I know that's a big question, but that is a very common concern. Not only amongst families that are doing traditional schooling, but also homeschool families. Like how are they gonna survive? A lot of people don't get into homeschooling'cause they're like, I like the ideas and the philosophies and the values, but man, how are they gonna get a diploma and how are they gonna get into university and how are they gonna get the job that pays

Cecilie Conrad:

so in my experience, lots of people fail after school. I'm just saying the school is not actually a guarantee that you'll. Even get a job. So the idea that the risk is bigger for home educated children, you might have that idea in your mind, but if you look at the statistics, So we have to take those two things. Make them separate. Yes. We home educate. Yes. We worry about how will our children pay for their lives. I worry about how I will pay for my life. I, we all have to find a way with this, but these two things have nothing to do with each other. I would've worried about that anyway. And the fact that they're home educated doesn't make the problem bigger or smaller. It's the same problem. And so that's one thing. And then you've also said how do they get into university? Most schools on this planet have some sort of. They have rules for this. What do you need to start in our school?

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad:

And they also have, most of them have some sort of, okay, so if you don't have that, what do you do if they don't have that written down anywhere? You know the rules to get in. Yeah. And the Plan B kind of thing. You can always call them, they have student counselors or whatever the word is in English. You can call'em, say, I'd really like to study at your school. I don't have the things that you say I need to have because I lived a different, life happens to some people. Some people move to a different country. They have the wrong papers. Some people come from war zones. The paper's burned. Lots of things could happen. So they've seen it before. And and then you take it from there. But if you wanna get in, there's a way in somehow Yes. You just need to find it. And I'm saying just now. After two and a half years of looking for a way in being extremely frustrated to the point of banging my head into a fix wall and a little bit of screaming and shouting and a lot more frustration and giving up and trying again many times. And meanwhile the problem riped and maybe I was just trying, I don't know, whatever. I, maybe I didn't trust the process enough because when it finally happened, it was quite easy actually. It's just a question of talking to the right people at the right time. Who was that

Timmy Eaton:

for? Who, what was that for?

Cecilie Conrad:

So the two middle ones now both are starting this preparation course that is like high school you can get into university without that here, but.

Timmy Eaton:

It's helpful.

Cecilie Conrad:

It's not easy. It really isn't, especially if you're young. So we have a Plan B way of getting in, but it's mostly thought for if you're after 50 years old, you wanna change career and you wanna go into university, then maybe you do have all that knowledge in life experience that makes you ready to have a university degree you never had. But if you're 17

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad:

And you wanna start, you could, but it's harder. So they're doing that prep thing. Yeah. And to get them into the prep thing was quite the journey.

Timmy Eaton:

I what I'm feeling this whole time is there really are like country to country I mean there's similarities that tie us all together, but your guys' perspective and your perspective of having traveled is like just opening my mind to things.

Jesper Conrad:

One of the things people forget around universities or any education is it is a business. They're earning money. They want product. They, that product is taking a student from start to finish. A lot of the encouragement structures for school is they get something when a child starts and then they get something when a child succeeds. So they actually also want you to succeed. The whole system is set up for them actually wanting students and wanting the students to not drop out. They don't earn money on the dropouts. There's ways to come in, et cetera. I had a point around the whole homeschooling, unschooling thing, which I have started to be more precise around it, and I actually have started not advising against homeschooling, but I'm saying it like this, to ask people to stop up and think things true. Because one of the things I can see that can be a challenge and harmful with homeschooling is that you as the parent, take over the role as a teacher. So if you are not careful about, am I now a parent or a teacher, and whose curriculum am I trying to enforce here? Then you can ruin the part of your job as a parent that is most important, which is the connection you have with your child. So I, I find it necessary to say, if you are a homeschooler or plan to homeschool, just stop up and look at, are you in any way harming your relationship with your child doing it? Are you enforcing them to sit down? Is it getting skewed from being a parent? Because I can see that happened in, in some ways than structures of homeschooling.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah.

Jesper Conrad:

That said, I think homeschooling is a way better choice than school because you do not make the separation. And then I've also been thinking about curriculums. I just get more and more fascinated by how I also, in my own childhood, my own upbringing, but also when we started with our oldest who went to school. I never thought about what curriculum is she's being presented with. Why have they chosen the different things that totally is being important.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah. Neither did I.

Jesper Conrad:

No, it was just like, that's how it is. Yeah. That's what you do now I question it. And also, if I was not out of an unschooling family like we are and we did homeschooling, that's based on whose curriculum it, it is, I

Timmy Eaton:

think that's Now whose values are driving that yeah. That's a great question. And that goes back to what you guys are saying about question everything. Because,'cause some people could be like, that sounds tiresome to question everything. But then if you don't, then you have to accept what is then and when you don't want to. And you haven't done anything about that.'cause if you haven't asked the questions, then you have to succumb to what is, and if you don't wanna do that, then you gotta ask some questions and leave your comfort zone. And yeah.

Jesper Conrad:

And one of the challenges is also that our world is so big and we don't have these smaller attachment villages of where we lived in the neighborhood. Not saying everything was better back in the days, but I would have known the school teacher in a small local community. I would have known her values, I would have eaten dinner with her, et cetera. Maybe. It depends how big it is.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah. More likely though. More likely than the way it is now. At least around here. For sure. And that actually leads into you guys have hung out with Dr. Neufeld, haven't you?

Jesper Conrad:

Yeah I have the pleasure of having been working together with him for a year. What happened was we had him on a podcast and then, I looked at his website afterwards and was thinking his values and what he teaches and his book aligns pretty good with how we are living our life and what is important for us. And I was thinking, okay, why don't I use my powers inside marketing for something good. So now I'm working with him to get his things more out as it's quite powerful. It's in super interesting,

Timmy Eaton:

and I don't remember how long ago, but it was near the beginning where we read his stuff on, especially Hold Onto Your kids, but it resonated so much, especially with my spouse, and she put me onto it. And I've talked to so many people that that love his work and doesn't this also play into this idea I was reading a little bit about it, but not in depth about the evolved Nest. Who is it? Who is it Darcy ves, or. Yeah. Yeah. Question. Yeah. Yeah. What is that? I can imagine, and I have my own ideas, but this idea of evolved nest and attachment seemed to go together.

Jesper Conrad:

Yes. It, so the way she's originally an anthropologist and have studied how things have been going on. We are on a place where we don't necessarily believe everything was better in the olden days, that sometimes people put this haze where it's like, oh, it was so good. We lived in small villages and everybody knew each other, and it was so fantastic. Some of it. Wonderful. I like to travel, so I wouldn't have been able to take part in the family clan and living in the local neighborhood doing my things as I, I'm a nomad nomad by hand. But the idea of the evolved nest is actually just looking and seeing. The family structures have become so small. So who are your nest? Where is it? Someone called it the attachment villages. Some, there's this saying it takes a village. But basically if we look at the, today, many families live two parents with the 2.4 child, a 1.4 child, whatever, how that could look in, in a household alone in an apartment, not socializing with their neighbors. They're doing everything themselves. Everyone have their own screwdriver or trampoline, et cetera. There's not a lot of community going on. And I think that this test of thinking smaller units it is becoming more and more clear to people that, hey, maybe we should, be more together as people maybe. It's actually quite nice to be together. So I'm, I, you could hear the episode with Dacia because she's explaining her faults. I'm a different place. I, but we try to cove, we try to create community. We try to. Live together with other people and share the burdens of life or the joys of life together as both of them needs to be shared.

Timmy Eaton:

Are you guys familiar with Andrew Pua Institute for Excellence in writing, I just interviewed him. And he's at the very end of his like career, if you wanna call it that. At the end of our interview, one of the big points that he made was he has seven children and 18, I think almost 19 grandkids. And they're all homeschooled, like every single one of them has chosen to homeschool of his children that are married and have children. And anyway, he's just saying, in the US and Canada we're used to saying our children go to school. So it is not uncommon. For example, like I grew up in Chicago. I went to university in Utah, so that's a 24 hour drive from my house in Chicago. And then I ended up living in Canada. So and I met a girl and we, we ended up in Canada. But he thinks in his opinion we should do more. Not that you're going to choose for everybody, but that you create the atmosphere of stop sending everybody away. Because as a family there's enough local resources that we could build our communities locally and build it that way. But we keep sending everybody away. Go to school, go to university, go to your job. And anyway, I think the evolved nest probably would function more. I don't know effectively if we didn't always send everybody away but again, that's gonna be, you don't wanna dictate what people choose. But that's the idea that we were talking about.

Cecilie Conrad:

I think. You can have all of the education, most of the education by using what most of us have in our back pocket. Not like you have to go anywhere to learn.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad:

We can learn from home,

Timmy Eaton:

go outside

Cecilie Conrad:

on our own, and it's nice to learn with others. It's helpful to learn with help with helpers, teachers, experts. I'm not saying that education is such as obsolete at all. It's just we don't have to go. It used to be so that we have had to go somewhere to learn, but now we don't.

Timmy Eaton:

Especially with technology,

Cecilie Conrad:

especially now that we have the smartphone basically. I think one thing that we've realized over the years of home educating and just being maybe extreme parents that I think gets lost in the whole idea of education and the idea of academics for children is the real importance of childhood, how important it actually is for your entire life. You can learn all of primary school math in about three months if you sit down to study it. Let's say after you're 20 years old, after you're 12 years old, most people could just sit down and if that's what you're doing with the, the resource energy you have to use your brain. You'll learn it pretty quickly.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad:

You cannot get a childhood back. You cannot start over evolving everything that happens from that beautiful baby. You come out, you're this miracle shining and this, and then you start walking and talking and you're embraced by the world and you're trying to understand and you're exploring. You're becoming a little bit older. You're asking all the questions, you're trying to figure out all of the relations, all of the emotions, all of the colors, all of the vibes of things. All of the things.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah. You're meeting the world

Cecilie Conrad:

and then you, this tween years and the teenage years happen and it is rolling over you like a tsunami for some of them maybe. More calm thing for others is different, but it's still a big deal. They need so much time to think about things and feel things and relate to things and relate to others and have communication con conversations with their friends and with their parents and with whoever they trust to talk with. It just went for a walk right before this on a beach, and I talked with a beautiful unschooled teenage girl, not my own and she said, there are not many adults you can talk to who will actually really listen to you, who actually are interested in what you're saying. They might politely talk to you and be interested in you as a person some weird way without being interested in what you're saying. But some adults, they relate to you for realsies. Isn't that sad? I mean it. So anyway, that is so important for having a good life that the fact that we're even talking about academics and money. Ridiculous.

Timmy Eaton:

You're able to stand

Cecilie Conrad:

on your feet, know who you are, know how to relate to other people, know how to be part of a community, know how to handle rough times. We all get that. Know how to be the one that helps others to handle rough time. No basic stuff like thriving, I would say. Yeah, knowing what love is, all of these things is installed and this installation that happens going from the beautiful little baby to the young adult person standing up here ready to walk into life, that cannot be done in another chunk of 17 years. Of your life. It has to be done in the first 17 years. I'm saying 17 arbitrarily. And whatever. If you need to learn to speak French or do trigonometry, whatever

Timmy Eaton:

you can

Cecilie Conrad:

do that whenever, whatever.

Timmy Eaton:

I'm

Cecilie Conrad:

just saying you're not coming to that point of 17 with nothing of what we normally think of as schooling

Timmy Eaton:

education. Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad:

not like they're coming out and all they know is how to relate to other people and feel love and, they do also acquire quite a lot of stuff that if you take the school filter. You will see academics if you like.

Timmy Eaton:

I think if people listen to that, what you just said in that last little monologue or whatever you wanna call it. No, it was a good rant, man. Because and I think it really does it converts me more to the unschool philosophy because. Like you said, like you can learn that stuff later. But the development of that human, again the name of this podcast is this Golden Hour, and I always tell the story, but that came from me playing catch with my son in front of this dental office where we used to live about, 13, 14 years ago. And I'm playing catch with him. And as we walked inside, it was like this beautiful evening and it was just warm out. And we're walking in and I'm like, dude, this is a fleeting time. I don't get this forever. And and that's proven that's proven very true. You don't know when you're gonna lose those opportunities and then they're gone, man. Like you said, you don't get that back. And so we don't regret at all that from the time our kids were born until the present day. Those hours that were, would've been spent in a brick schoolhouse. They were spent with my wife and with me and with nature. What have you guys told people that are trying to get into home education? What's your kind of counsel to people

Jesper Conrad:

we actually sometimes talk about opening the door to Nia in this old story that it is a journey where you keep peeling of layers of your understanding of what life should be, and you figure out that much of what you, and I don't like you using words like programmed or instilled in you because it sounds like there's a man who wanna do it against you. It is just life. It's just happened that we ended up in this lifestyle. Yeah. You start questioning a lot of things and there's a long questioning period, and I see some people go through this normal trajectory where you start out by defending yourself against what is, it's like you need mental crutches to move away from normal, and you often start out by being negative against what other people are doing and the school system is bad and all these things, whereas you end up, when you have walked the pad and gotten rid of the anger and all these things you needed to dare going out in real life. Then you end up just enjoying your life and seeing, oh. We like it like this. Some people like it like that. That's okay. So what I'm trying to say with this long thing is that for people wanting to start, except there is a period where you might end up being like on the barricades for homeschooling and unschooling and claiming that everything else is stupid, but it's a face that you need to grow out of also, because you should not define your life in being against, you should define your life as being for something excellent and living that. And that is where if I can look back, I can see I was on that whole trajectory of I, I can all the rants against school, all the rants against how, what a thing can be wrong with this and that. But when I look at what I'm actually really happy for with this life I live, it is the fact that I live next to Cecilia. For so many more hours than I did when I went to work. I have had a marriage that is so much longer than many other people. Because I'm next to her all the time. And we often travel in a van, or when we live in the Airbnbs houses with friends, we often like to be in the same rooms, the whole family.

Timmy Eaton:

Wow. And

Jesper Conrad:

the amount of time and hours I get together with my family and my loved ones, that is the choice. Yeah. So why

Timmy Eaton:

spend your time and energy about what other people are doing and what you're against? Like you're just going, dude I love what you just said. Like you've extended your marriage, you've extended your relationship with your children.

Cecilie Conrad:

It's the same thing as my rent before that, what's really important in this life? So your question was, what do you say to people who think that yeah, they might wanna start homeschooling and Yeah, there's no one thing that you can say about that because every choice is contextual and every context is different. But we do talk a lot about values and life choices. We do talk about it in our family and we do talk about it with other people, so if you're at a point where you stop and say, maybe I should homeschool, you're already there. Really where you do that analysis of what's important. And we've brushed on lots of things that people are afraid of in this podcast we talked about. Then what after and what will people say and all these things, what will be your troubles? Yeah. And my advice for that is, when you're doing a, an analysis, trying to figure out what are my real values and what kind of life do I want to live? Can I live a life where I support more of the things that are my top values? Then fear will come right away and try to stop you, especially if it's a little bit out of the ordinary what your choices would be. So just think about that fear. How, what kind of role do I want fear to have in my life? What will I allow fear to choose for me? What level of fear can I cope with? And is there a way, if it's just fear. Holding me back from what's truly important to me. Let's pretend right now. We've done the work. You know what's truly important to you. You know how you could get it, and homeschooling might be part of that equation, but there's something of you're afraid of. You're so afraid of it, that's stopping you from doing what's really important. And flip it, please. Yeah, man. You think about what will happen if you don't do the things that are important. What price are you really paying? And then you start being really afraid. You know you don't wanna pay that price. No, you don't. And then you go back to your initial fear and you just start working with that. There's techniques for that. That's actually quite easy, I'm afraid of this. Okay. And it pales. It pales in comparison.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah. Like

Cecilie Conrad:

exactly you. That's now it becomes just a practical problem you need to solve. And yourself. So that's like the strategy of what we would say to people. But obviously the actual content and conversation would be based on the actual personalities involved and the actual context, the actual situation. So there's no one size fits all.

Timmy Eaton:

What an amazing response from both of you. Like honestly, like the deeper we've gotten into this conversation, I'm like at your guys' feet. I seriously take more than Can I take one more to me? Yeah, please. No, for sure.

Jesper Conrad:

Okay. Standing on the wonderful island of Lap Palmer, Spain, which is right next to, that's where you're headed, right? Can, no, not right now. Just to Spain. LA

Cecilie Conrad:

Palm is one of the Canary Islands. You know about River maybe? Yeah. Yeah.

Jesper Conrad:

One of those. So we were standing on this island. We met some full-time travelers and I just looked at him and I said, man, oh man, I would really love this being a full-time traveler. It seems awesome. Do you have an advice? And they looked at us and said. Set a date and that's set a date, three words, that's quite easy. And then, but then he followed it up with, then you start from dreaming to planning. And the interesting things about many of these dreams are that they are often in the future, but when you set the date, you will reach that time and period where you need to act on it if you're true, what your values and your choices. And we also talked with a unschool homeschool mom, and she was a single mom, and she actually said to us, yes, I knew I wanted to homeschool, but I was a single mom. So I was like, how can I make this happen?

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah. But

Jesper Conrad:

then again, she said, I know I want this in my life. I will give myself three or four years to figure out how to do it. And then she worked on reaching that dream that it was building up a community of people who could help her when she needed to go to work, et cetera. But it's the same strategy. She set a date, she planned for it, and she moved in that direction.

Timmy Eaton:

Yeah. It's

Jesper Conrad:

Very easy to go through life with just dreams. Dreams are nice. I don't think you shouldn't have dreams, but they are this comforting fault about a positive future. But sometimes you actually need to take that dream and put it and make it a plan. Make it a plan, and make it happen. So that is also one of the advices for people wanting to homeschool is making, make a plan. Make a plan.

Timmy Eaton:

It inspires me like it's exactly what Cecilia was saying, to the degree that I put that off man. And what am I more afraid of him? I more afraid of what is staring me in the face right now or what could have been. And so I think that's amazing. Counsel. I appreciate it from both of you.

Jesper Conrad:

We have this friend we had on our podcast and we talk with her and she said, the amount of insecurity you can hold as a person equals the amount of freedom you will have because you will, in this life, when you go outside the norm, there will be a lot of insecurity, a lot of what will happen and all these things. But you will then also be greeted and gifted with a lot of freedom. And that's a nice life.

Timmy Eaton:

So say it again. The amount of insecurity that you can handle determines the amount of freedom that you'll experience. Yes. You can have, wow. You can

Cecilie Conrad:

only be so free

Timmy Eaton:

as the insecurities you can take as insecurity

Cecilie Conrad:

you can handle. Yeah.

Timmy Eaton:

In my show notes, I'll put all your guys stuff. I just encourage my audience to like tap into you guys. I love interviewing people from different cultures and different countries and people that have traveled like you guys have, because you do, you just have a different perspective that is such a blessing to the rest of us. And so thank you very much. Thanks for taking time. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Cecilie Conrad:

It was fun.

Timmy Eaton:

That wraps up another edition of this Golden Hour podcast. If you haven't done so already, I would totally appreciate it if you would take a minute and give us a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify. It helps out a lot, and if you've done that already, thank you much. Please consider sharing this show with friends and family members that you think would get something out of it. And thank you for listening and for your support. I'm your host, Tim Eaton. Until next time, remember to cherish this golden hour with your children and family.